>>> At 04:46 PM 1/28/98 -0800, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > >My opinion, for what it is worth, is that having a set of sponsons along >on club trips or group trips may not be a bad idea for an injured or a >paddler who has been a bit shaken by continuing dumping. I agree they might come in handy during emergencies, although Ive never tried them. The problem is...where to get them. I will not under any circumstance purchase a set of Tim's. Wayne PS-Jackie is my hero. Jackie for Paddlewise Paddlequeen. >>> ************************************************************************** * Since the clips have to be installed and adjusted beforehand, how would a set of sponsons carried by the leader benefit a paddler who probably is not set up for them? Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Chuck Holst wrote: > > > I agree they might come in handy during emergencies, although Ive never > tried them. The problem is...where to get them. I will not under any > circumstance purchase a set of Tim's. > > Wayne > > PS-Jackie is my hero. Jackie for Paddlewise Paddlequeen. > >>> > Since the clips have to be installed and adjusted beforehand, > how would a set of sponsons carried by the leader benefit a > paddler who probably is not set up for them? > > Chuck Holst That is a good point. Boats are not likely to be set up for them. However, the pre-setup is absolutely crucial for someone alone. If within a group, rafting up and several set of hands attacking the project would get it done pretty quickly even without a pre-setup. In the case of a group, I don't see the sponsons as a _rescue_ device, afterall an assisted rescue would be quicker and more effective over a wide range of conditions. I see it as a moving-on device for the dumped paddler to paddle away toward the next beach or safety point. In so many dumping situations, the affected paddler is so prone to continuing dumping again. Some of the classic episodes in Sea Kayaker and other reports attest to this. The sponsons stop the dumping pretty much and give the paddler a chance to regain composure. That is where I see the real value of sponsons. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Is Ingram the only supplier of sponsons? Where can I get the air bladders so that I can make my own? Whereas they probably have no place in sudden storm conditions, sponsons are probably worth having for towing an incapacitated boat and/or paddler. Chuck Holst wrote: > >>> > At 04:46 PM 1/28/98 -0800, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > > >My opinion, for what it is worth, is that having a set of sponsons along > >on club trips or group trips may not be a bad idea for an injured or a > >paddler who has been a bit shaken by continuing dumping. > > > I agree they might come in handy during emergencies, although Ive never > tried them. The problem is...where to get them. I will not under any > circumstance purchase a set of Tim's. > > Wayne > > PS-Jackie is my hero. Jackie for Paddlewise Paddlequeen. > >>> > > ************************************************************************** * > > Since the clips have to be installed and adjusted beforehand, > how would a set of sponsons carried by the leader benefit a > paddler who probably is not set up for them? > > Chuck Holst > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Keith Kaste wrote: > > Is Ingram the only supplier of sponsons? Where can I get the air bladders so > that I can make my own? Whereas they probably have no place in sudden storm > conditions, sponsons are probably worth having for towing an incapacitated boat > and/or paddler. I recall see some similar type product in mail order catalogues like Wyoming River Traders or a name like that. I am certain there are some around. I have seen them in catalogues for use on canoes. I will just have to search through all my old catalogues to see what I can come up with. Mind you, the SeaWings, are really well made and decently designed to serve their function. I believe that Voyageur, which makes them for Tim, is contractually limited to how they can provide them to the public, i.e. it is Tim's patent. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Hi Ralph, Do you have the patent number? Is it Canadian only? First of all, I almost can't imagine Tim putting together a good patent claim. Secondly, the prior art goes back probably several hundred years. Thanks for the reference on Voyageur. My K-light, as almost all folding boats, has internal sponsons. I suppose Feathercraft as well as Klepper and Folbot might be able to direct me to their sponson supplier. Thanks for the info, Keith rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > I recall see some similar type product in mail order catalogues like > Wyoming River Traders or a name like that. I am certain there are some > around. I have seen them in catalogues for use on canoes. > > I will just have to search through all my old catalogues to see what I > can come up with. Mind you, the SeaWings, are really well made and > decently designed to serve their function. I believe that Voyageur, > which makes them for Tim, is contractually limited to how they can > provide them to the public, i.e. it is Tim's patent. > > ralph > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter > PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 > Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com > "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
> ... Whereas they probably have no place in sudden storm > conditions, sponsons are probably worth having for towing an > incapacitated boat and/or paddler. There have been a couple of instances on our club trips when such devices would have been handy. When a normally adequate paddler became seasick in big seas to the extent of being unable to stay upright, one person had to tow the victim, while another had to hold him and his boat upright while being colourfully spewed upon, so the tower had two dead weights to deal with... It has happened at least twice... If sponsons had been available, maybe both able paddlers could have towed the victim in a tandem V-tow... maybe not... If there had only been two paddlers on the water that day, they would have been in a right pickle... -- jim *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
At 02:11 PM 1/30/98 +1100, Jim Croft wrote: >> ... Whereas they probably have no place in sudden storm >> conditions, sponsons are probably worth having for towing an >> incapacitated boat and/or paddler. > >There have been a couple of instances on our club trips when such >devices would have been handy. When a normally adequate paddler became >seasick in big seas to the extent of being unable to stay upright, one >person had to tow the victim, while another had to hold him and his boat >upright while being colourfully spewed upon, so the tower had two dead >weights to deal with... Just an idea.... A clever technique that I have only experimented with during safety clinics is to fit *each* end of the victims paddle with an inflated paddlefloat. This gives a tremendous amount of support for even very weak attempts at bracing. A successful use of this method was published in a SK magazine accident report four or more years ago. Depending on the circumstances, an incapacitated paddler may very well be able to stay upright with this method during a tow without having to raft up with another kayak. Greg Stamer Orlando, Florida *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
> Jim Croft wrote: > >> ... Whereas they probably have no place in sudden storm > >> conditions, sponsons are probably worth having for towing an > >> incapacitated boat and/or paddler. > > > >There have been a couple of instances on our club trips when such > >devices would have been handy. When a normally adequate paddler became > >seasick in big seas to the extent of being unable to stay upright, one > >person had to tow the victim, while another had to hold him and his boat > >upright while being colourfully spewed upon, so the tower had two dead > >weights to deal with... > Greg Stamer wrote: > Just an idea.... > > A clever technique that I have only experimented with during safety clinics > is to fit *each* end of the victims paddle with an inflated paddlefloat. > This gives a tremendous amount of support for even very weak attempts at > bracing. A successful use of this method was published in a SK magazine > accident report four or more years ago. Depending on the circumstances, an > incapacitated paddler may very well be able to stay upright with this > method during a tow without having to raft up with another kayak. Thanks Greg. I think the Sea Kayaker article was more than five years ago (a title something like "Superior Trouble", it was not one of my articles). I'll add a couple further comments: Depending how out-of-it the victim is, he or she can either hold the paddle across their lap - ready to lean on it for support or the paddle can be slid through the rear deck lines as it would be for a paddle float self-rescue, except that the paddle would in this case be centered. Secondly: As for towing with more than one kayak doing the work, I've had better results with towing single file rather than in a wishbone manner (which tended to jerk everyone involved more). To do this I've clipped each tower's rope together end to end, and attached each tower's towing harness (sling, rope attached to towing belt in PFD, etc.) at their respective junction in the rope chain. I can't say that this is always the best way, but in my limited experiments with trying both methods of using multiple towers the single file system seemed the better solution. I've actually only done this with two towers, but as long as everyone had a tow rope, the concept could be repeated to include more towers...another reason every kayak should carry a tow rope. In case anyone is wondering, it definitely makes towing faster and easier to have more than one person pulling. As a historical aside, I've seen old photos of Eskimos working together this way (at least six kayaks in a row) to tow a whale. Further, as with other skills, towing (and freeing oneself from the tow) should be practiced before it is needed. George Gronseth (Co-author of "Sea Kayaker Deep Trouble") Kayak Academy 2512 NE 95th St. Seattle, WA 98115 www.halcyon.com/kayak/ kayak_at_halcyon.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Keith wrote; > > Do you have the patent number? Is it Canadian only? First of all, I almost can't > imagine Tim putting together a good patent claim. Secondly, the prior art goes back > probably several hundred years. Thanks for the reference on Voyageur. My K-light, > as almost all folding boats, has internal sponsons. I suppose Feathercraft as well > as Klepper and Folbot might be able to direct me to their sponson supplier. > I have not looked into what Tim's patent says but I doubt if it is a supportable patent except in a very narrow way. That is often the way with patents. One has to define them so narrowly that it becomes easy to circumvent them. Also, one has to be willing to go to court to support your claim and that is risky expensive business. Having been through this business myself both as an expert witness in support of a patent (the case was lost - maybe I wasn't expert enough) and also as a patent seeker the costs of a patent just aren't worth it unless one really has a great idea that will make tons of money. My lawyer says most people get patents just for bragging purposes. He calls them vanity patents. I doubt if the sponson concept itself can be patented. As Keith points out, the basic idea is older than Moses. Cheers John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Greg wrote; > > A clever technique that I have only experimented with during safety > clinics > > is to fit *each* end of the victims paddle with an inflated paddlefloat. > > This gives a tremendous amount of support for even very weak attempts at > > bracing. A successful use of this method was published in a SK magazine > > accident report four or more years ago. Depending on the circumstances, > an > > incapacitated paddler may very well be able to stay upright with this > > method during a tow without having to raft up with another kayak. After having bad luck with our paddle float rescue tests I called Matt Brose who sent me his rigging instructions. Once rigged in his suggested manner we had much better luck so my first feelings that paddle floats were not so good had to be modified. We had rigged ours poorly. We also tried the paddle float outrigger idea that Greg suggests and it seemed viable although we did not have rough enough conditions to see what would happen in really big waves. Hannes Lindeman used a paddle outrigger with an inner tube on the end and seemed to feel that the outrigger contributed to his two capsizes. I can think of some advantages to the paddle float outrigger concept. It provides options in one device (paddle float rescue, fixed outrigger, improved bracing as paddle augmentation, and as a roll assist. This has a lot of merit to my mind since one device is doing multiple duty. George's comments about towing are good. The reverse of this (one boat towing many boats) is the method used by yacht clubs to tow small sailboats. Whether they are towed in after a storm or just no wind this method (each boat tying on to a single tow rope) reduces the strain on the boats and eliminates the inevitable banging together that happens with a fan tow. They use tow ropes with lops spliced into them for the purpose. It also reduces the strain on the first boat. I once saw a bow fitting ripped out of the first boat in a multiple boat tow when they were tied end to end. The method used for tying on was a slip knot that could be quickly popped loose if a boat capsized or otherwise came to grief. One doesn't want to be fumbling about untying knots in an emergency. In a kayak a line around the waist with a slip knot is simple, cheap and doesn't cause the boat to be jerked around. Probably more sophisticated ways but I am such a cheap beggar. Cheers John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
G'day - John Winters makes a point about putting on sponsons in conditions that are less than ideal (forgive me John if I don't quote you exactly, but I really do not have not much time to fully read and absorb the articles other than speed reading - and deleting!) As I have stated before, as a professional kayak guide, I get out onto the water a lot with our business and with private trips (at least 25 days each month on average). I have observed that it can be absolute hell to hold onto those deck lines on your boat in rougher conditions (I'm talking over two meter swell with breaking tops). I'd also like to say that, in my mind, for truly "experienced" paddlers this is often not all that serious, depending on a variety of factors. Having decklines can give quite a sense of false security. The problem is, once you are out of the boat and in the water that boat is a very potentially lethal weapon. The mass of the boat means that it catches a lot of water. Also, the lengths of most kayaks mean that once you are out of the kayak, large sections of the boat (especially at the stern and the bow) are not in the water or on the waves at the same time. It can nearly rip your fingers off as the wave catches it or the bow or stern rocket up or down. Often I can relate it to what I think it must be like getting back onto a very uncooperative bucking bronco. I do not come out of my boat very often and if it does occur, it usually happens in over two meter surf after a day of playing around when I should have already gone home. I have had some pretty serious bruising of my fingers come out of gripping those deck lines and that is holding onto the kayak amidships where there is less dramatic movement than at the stern or the bow!! I just can't fathom how anyone would be able to safely put sponsons on in those conditions. OK, maybe it should be argued that one should not be there, but I am talking about having just spent the last four hours playing in that surf, run after run, and then every now and then on rare occaisions coming unstuck. I have to say that avoidance of the situation and solid paddling skills training is far better than being beside that darn boat as it bucks and heaves and attempts to do a good job of ripping your arms and fingers from their normal positions and stoving in your head shoulders or any other part of your anatomy. Just the view of a guy who spends a lot of time on the water (and sometimes, much to my chagrin - in it). Regards Wayne Langmaid Central Coast Kayak Tours - Australia *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Wayne wrote; (SNIP) > The problem is, once you are out of the boat and in the water that boat > is a very potentially lethal weapon. The mass of the boat means that it > catches a lot of water. Also, the lengths of most kayaks mean that once > you are out of the kayak, large sections of the boat (especially at the > stern and the bow) are not in the water or on the waves at the same > time. It can nearly rip your fingers off as the wave catches it or the > bow or stern rocket up or down. Often I can relate it to what I think > it must be like getting back onto a very uncooperative bucking bronco. > I do not come out of my boat very often and if it does occur, it usually > happens in over two meter surf after a day of playing around when I > should have already gone home. I have had some pretty serious bruising > of my fingers come out of gripping those deck lines and that is holding > onto the kayak amidships where there is less dramatic movement than at > the stern or the bow!! (SNIP) What Wayne is talking about here is worth considering. For instance, if kayak "A" requires additional stability for re-entry (either with a paddle float, sponsons or whatever) and the addition of the device makes the boat safer by allowing re-entry then why wouldn't a boat that already has that stability designed into it be much better? I think we would all agree that the more time one spends in the water and the more one has to do while immersed the greater our risk of being separated from the boat. Therefor it is logical to argue that, not only should a boat have sufficient stability for re-entry stability but, that stability should not be dependent upon any device that must be installed after capsize. certainly for handicapped paddlers sponsons would be a poor solution to the problem since the handicapped person would be forced to either paddle all the time with the sponsons (in which case he might as well have a properly designed boat) or he would be forced to manage installing them after the fact when, as Wayne points out, success is not guaranteed. Cheers John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ t *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
This problem of having to handle a wild or difficult to restrain Kayak in such waters, described by Wayne, leave me somewhat chilled out by the idea of going through an additional fight to intall straps and proper positoning of a set of sponsons. Moreover having to inflate them would be challenging to my breath. Accepting the cold plus having to blow something up while dealing with a bucking kayak would be a bit much. I perceive that manually inflated sponsons would be suitable only for smooth or calm waters and what is needed is a CO-2 cartridge inflatable system, not a manuel inflatable one, for situations where there is a severe wave chop. Such a design would likewise get rid of the setup inconvenience of fastening straps and their associated drag. Why can't sponsons be merely attatched on the sides or edge of the gunwales in reserve for emergencies. Would you not think that this would be better? Would this not make sponsons more desirable and functional since it would be easier to initiate their deployment much the same as a scuba divers life vest? I don't know. If one is in the business of manufacturing sponsons perhaps a little more Research and Development could be brought to bear on the design. The way they are presently designed by Ingram suggests they are certainly not the panacea he makes them out to be. I would think there exists enough talent among this list of subscribers to solve the problem. Gee, you might even be able to put Ingram out of business with a superior design. The ultimate question to be answered, however, remains: is there really a need for them? Regards, Philip ------------------------------------------------------------------------ John Winters wrote: > I think we would all agree that the more time one spends in the water and > the more one has to do while immersed the greater our risk of being > separated from the boat. Therefor it is logical to argue that, not only > should a boat have sufficient stability for re-entry stability but, that > stability should not be dependent upon any device that must be installed > after capsize. > > certainly for handicapped paddlers sponsons would be a poor solution to > the problem since the handicapped person would be forced to either paddle > all the time with the sponsons (in which case he might as well have a > properly designed boat) or he would be forced to manage installing them > after the fact when, as Wayne points out, success is not guaranteed. > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Phillip wrote; (SNIP) > this not make sponsons more desirable and functional since it would be easier > to initiate their deployment much the same as a scuba divers life vest? > I don't know. If one is in the business of manufacturing sponsons perhaps a > little more > Research and Development could be brought to bear on the design. The way they > are presently designed by Ingram suggests they are certainly not the panacea he > > makes them out to be. I would think there exists enough talent among this list > of subscribers to solve the problem. Gee, you might even be able to put Ingram > out > of business with a superior design. The ultimate question to be answered, > however, > remains: is there really a need for them? There will always be a use for such things as sponsons. It is up to the individual to decide if there is a need and to recognize any shortcomings the equipment may have. No doubt sponsons could be improved. Nothing is perfect. One could also take another approach. Why not make sponsons redundant? Why not design boats with enough stability to allow wet re-entry without having to use sponsons? Cheers John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > There will always be a use for such things as sponsons. It is up to the > individual to decide if there is a need and to recognize any shortcomings > the equipment may have. > > No doubt sponsons could be improved. Nothing is perfect. One could also > take another approach. Why not make sponsons redundant? Why not design > boats with enough stability to allow wet re-entry without having to use > sponsons? How would this make sponsons redundant? Forgive me if I am a bit slow, but I really do not understand your point. Of course one could design a boat which, due to it's substantial beam, always has the same stability as Boat X with sponsons deployed. But the problem with such an approach is that you cannot reduce the beam for those times when a less beamy boat is desired. With sponsons you can increase the beam *temporarily* for the purpose of taking a crap or a nap (or whatever), and then reduce the beam once it is time to paddle. How do you intend to achieve this if the boat is beamy to begin with? Personally, I do not like the feel of beamy boats, but I do like the option of temporarily increasing the beam. As always, this is just my humble opinion. Dan Hagen Bellingham, Washington *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
At 05:47 PM 2/2/98 -0800, Dan Hagen wrote: snip-----> > But the problem with such an approach >is that you cannot reduce the beam for those times when a less beamy >boat is desired. With sponsons you can increase the beam *temporarily* >for the purpose of taking a crap or a nap (or whatever), and then reduce >the beam once it is time to paddle. snip-----> > Personally, I do not like the feel of >beamy boats, but I do like the option of temporarily increasing the >beam. As always, this is just my humble opinion. >Dan Hagen Now here, HERE is what I consider a good use for these things... uh... any suppliers on the west coast near us? 'Fraid the price would be just too high from the supplier out Georgian Bay way... Lake Washington looked tooo good today, I saw it often as I packed boxes... whata time to pick to move... Heh! Take care, Tom... Kirkland, Washington Three left turns make a right... -T.W. <http://www.isomedia.com/homes/gadfly/> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
At 07:23 AM 2/2/98 -0500, John wrote: > No doubt sponsons could be improved. Nothing is perfect. One could also >take another approach. Why not make sponsons redundant? Why not design >boats with enough stability to allow wet re-entry without having to use >sponsons? John: Wouldn't providing enough initial stability to enable reentering require increasing the beam so much as to reduce final stability to the point that capsize in the first place could conceivably be more likely? > Brian > >Cheers >John Winters >Redwing Designs >Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft >http://home.ican.net/~735769/ > > > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 98-02-02 07:29:25 EST, 735769_at_ican.net writes: << No doubt sponsons could be improved. Nothing is perfect. One could also take another approach. Why not make sponsons redundant? Why not design boats with enough stability to allow wet re-entry without having to use sponsons? >> For years I have been teaching paddlers how to re-enter a kayak without sponsons or paddle float. I find that the majority of paddlers can, with a little practice and the right technique, climb back into their kayaks quickly with a fair amount of ease. Onced learned I have had my students successfully manage to climb back into their boats in the surf zone between waves. This is the technique I use for jumping in and out of my boat for spearfishing, and I paddle a boat with a 22.5" beam. Of course this implies learning and practicing a new skill, which at least for myself I find much more enjoyable and handy then loading my boat down with a bunch of safety equipment (which incidentally also requires learning and practicing how to use properly). Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
> For years I have been teaching paddlers how to re-enter a kayak without >sponsons or paddle float. I find that the majority of paddlers can, with a >little practice and the right technique, climb back into their kayaks quickly >with a fair amount of ease. Onced learned I have had my students successfully >manage to climb back into their boats in the surf zone between waves. This is >the technique I use for jumping in and out of my boat for spearfishing, and I >paddle a boat with a 22.5" beam. Of course this implies learning and >practicing a new skill, which at least for myself I find much more enjoyable >and handy then loading my boat down with a bunch of safety equipment (which >incidentally also requires learning and practicing how to use properly). > >Scott >So.Cal. Scott, so what's your technique ? Although I have only tried this in a protected harbor, I found that I could quite easily climb back into my 22" beam boat without any aides other than paddle. My technique was basically to put the paddle across the righted boat, holding paddle and decklines on each side of the boat behind the cockpit. With the (feathered) paddle aligned with the blade on my side in a low brace position, I ducked under the water and with the assist of wetsuit/pfd buoyancy and a leg kick quickly pull my body onto the rear deck, facing forward, with one leg over each side. With legs in the water this is surprisingly stable even with an empty boat, and the paddle is in your hands ready to brace or sweep. I can then pull myself forward until I can slide down to sit into the cockpit, feet still in the water. I have a boat with a large key hole cockpit, and I can then bring my feet in from this position. I'm not pushing this method for self rescue .... infact I've only done it twice in flatish water - but it really was quite simple, and worked with an unladen boat the first time I tried it. In rough water, with waves breaking into the open cockpit .... Playing about getting in/out/on boats is fun, but if I was out for a paddle at sea I would rather concentrate on : not falling over if I fall over, not coming out of my boat :-) I have generally enjoyed these discussions, but does anyone else wonder why we can spend such a disproportionate amount of time pondering self rescue methods, to the actual amount of time that they are required ? Climbers who spend all their time talking about rope work and protection are generally novices - after a while they either stop climbing or are more interested in talking about climbs, moves, trips etc. If you are a novice paddler likely to fall out of your boat in conditions where paddle float/sponson/device X rescues are feasible, and being a novice you are foolish enough to choose to go out alone in conditions where you are likely to fall over, then OK I can see the mileage in discussing solo ways to get back in. However, the recent survey on wave~length demonstrated that for paddlers with a bit of experience falling out of your boat in strait forward conditions isn't terribly important and I guess that many would agree that conditions which actually threatened most paddlers with ejection from the boat would: - ideally be solved by a very speedy re-entry to regain control of the boat - probably prevent self rescue by any method other than re-entry and roll - alternatively be solved with assistance by rescue from a companion or tow to better conditions. For me it follows then that there is simple hierarchy of successful responses which solve the dilemma of being upside down: 1 roll back up 2 wet exit, re-enter and roll back up 3 recruit companion for assisted rescue If you can perform the first two options then fine, no problem, hey you'r sea kayaking ... having fun! If you can't perform 1 or 2 then your friendly paddling companions can assist you with 3. Oh! you forgot your companions ? Hmm, after exhausting the possibilities with the inflatable bags you have a wee while in the water to ponder the error of your ways .... What was it Arthur Ransome wrote in the classic 'Swallows and Amazons' ... something like 'Better drowned than duffers, If not duffers wont drown' ? Cheers Colin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Brian wrote; (SNIP) : > > Wouldn't providing enough initial stability to enable reentering require > increasing the beam so much as to reduce final stability to the point that > capsize in the first place could conceivably be more likely? > > Not necessarily. Stability is obtained in four basic ways. 1. Lowering the CG. 2. Increasing displacement 3. Increasing waterplane area. 4.Increasing beam. The first and second do not increase the capsizing moments in rough water and favorably increase the stability range. The third does not have to increase the capsizing moments so much as increasing beam since it can be done while retaining narrow beam. In addition it is also possible to shape the hull in such a way as to increase the stability range (secondary stability) without increasing initial stability. Usually this is accomplished through flared topsides. Dan wrote; > How would this make sponsons redundant? Forgive me if I am a bit slow, > but I really do not understand your point. Of course one could design a > boat which, due to it's substantial beam, always has the same stability > as Boat X with sponsons deployed. But the problem with such an approach > is that you cannot reduce the beam for those times when a less beamy > boat is desired. With sponsons you can increase the beam *temporarily* > for the purpose of taking a crap or a nap (or whatever), and then reduce > the beam once it is time to paddle. How do you intend to achieve this if > the boat is beamy to begin with? Personally, I do not like the feel of > beamy boats, but I do like the option of temporarily increasing the > beam. As always, this is just my humble opinion. You are not slow. Stability takes up a large portion of most naval architecture books and is an extremely complicated topic. The nature of stability changes as the boat heels beyond seven to ten degrees and what seems good at low angles of heel is not good at high angles of heel. More importantly the nature of stability provided by form differs from that provided by displacement and CG location. I hope the response to Brian's question clears that up a bit. My suggestion was not that everyone should have any type of boat. It was that there are other ways of skinning this cat. They will not please everyone just as no one boat will please everyone. Sponsons are one method of solving certain problems but they aren't the only solution or maybe not even the best solution for some types of paddling or paddlers. The introduction of another solution should not be construed as a criticism of any solution but rather the introduction of another possibility that may be "better" for some one. We have heard here from people who do wet re-entries into narrow boats without any assist. Some might prefer to put ashore for a nap. Some have clever methods of handling bodily functions. Some use paddle floats . If one likes sponsons and finds them useful then that is good. My concern has always been that most people do not understand or are unaware of the downside of things. I know of no rescue device or technique that is fool proof or 100% reliable or does not have some aspect that will turn off at least one paddler. I have attended SNAME (Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers) symposia where people with more letters behind their names than I have in mine argue over these things. :-) Cheers John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Chuck wrote; (SNIP) > I agree they might come in handy during emergencies, although Ive never > tried them. The problem is...where to get them. I will not under any > circumstance purchase a set of Tim's. > > > Wayne > > PS-Jackie is my hero. Jackie for Paddlewise Paddlequeen. > >>> > > ************************************************************************** * > > Since the clips have to be installed and adjusted beforehand, > how would a set of sponsons carried by the leader benefit a > paddler who probably is not set up for them? > > I don't know who makes them but I know that Seda sells sponsons. They may make their own and may not have to pay Tim's royalty. Cheers John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
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