I have brochures from feathercraft, folbot, Klepper, and Nautiraid. Most boats are between 25 inches to more than 30 inches wide, except for the Khatsalano which has 22 inches of beam. I am still waiting to see a commercially available folding kayak with 21 inches or less of beam. Is there a reason why folding kayaks need to be wide? Is the extra width due to the use of inflatable gunwhales? I am planning to make a foldable version of my skin over wood frame kayak, and would like to know the issues behind it. So far, a better solution to making a foldable kayak with skin on frame technology seems to be to make the frame a "take apart" rather than "foldable". The key is to be able to use the sections of the frame as suitcases and save excess luggage fees at the airport. However it is always nice to carry a kayak in a backpack and bike to the coast. Comments? cheers, - Julio *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Julio MacWilliams wrote: > > I have brochures from feathercraft, folbot, Klepper, and Nautiraid. > Most boats are between 25 inches to more than 30 inches wide, except for > the Khatsalano which has 22 inches of beam. I am still waiting to see > a commercially available folding kayak with 21 inches or less of beam. There was one in recent years, the Nautiraid Greenlander. It was under 20 inches wide if I recall correctly. It was almost unpaddeable and the company basically recalled it. The company eventually replaced it with a newer model with the same name and a 23 inch or so beam. It has never seriously been marketed but I understand that Seda, the Nautiraid distributor in the US, intends to re-introduce it. It may have some changes too. I plan to test it at some point. > > Is there a reason why folding kayaks need to be wide? Is the extra width > due to the use of inflatable gunwhales? Yes at a certain point the inflatable gunwales will restrict the narrowness you can achieve. > > I am planning to make a foldable version of my skin over wood frame kayak, > and would like to know the issues behind it. There was a pretty good article in Sea Kayaker about a fellow who made his own. I also have an article from a fellow who made one earlier. And plan to do some during the coming year. The key problem is fit of the skin to the frame. Unlike a permanently attached skin-to-frame boat, you have to have the skin set up so that it is reasonably easy to insert and remove the frame halves and expand them in the skin (although there is a new Nautiraid in which the frame is made entirely outside the skin before insertion--not a revolutionary idea really as some of the folding kayaks back in the 1910s made in a similar way). That's the tough part. The guy in the Sea Kayaker article spent a lot of time on it. And his materials costs were not insignificant. I think he will likely learn, from the little he talked about it in that article, that within a season or two he will not be able to assemble or knock down the boat because of problems with the too-tight skin fit. On the other hand you can make the skin real loose. But then you have a floppy boat with lots of drag. Most people don't know this but Tim Ingram (aka TFOP--True Founder of PaddleWise :-)) started in the kayak business with a folding kayak under the SeaLight brand. They had the simplest of aluminum tubing length (he had some 20 models, made possible by using various lengths of tubing!!!). It had a one piece vinyl skin held together with velcro strips and that wrapped around the skin. I dubbed it the Tortilla!!! > > So far, a better solution to making a foldable kayak with skin on frame > technology seems to be to make the frame a "take apart" rather than > "foldable". The key is to be able to use the sections of the frame as > suitcases and save excess luggage fees at the airport. However it is > always nice to carry a kayak in a backpack and bike to the coast. Comments? The takeapart concept, which is what you are describing, has been used by some manufacturers. The boats are heavier because of the extra material in added bulkheads, bolts, etc. If you are taking them apart rarely, they will do fine. If you try to do so a lot, you risk stripping the bolts. Moreover they are very delicate in travel usage. The edges of the joining parts have gaskets that are prone to getting crimped with any good bang. Then you have a boat that will not put together all that well. As long as you know these limitations you should be alright. ralph diaz *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > *************************************************************************** -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
> From: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com > > Julio MacWilliams wrote: > > > > I have brochures from feathercraft, folbot, Klepper, and Nautiraid. > > Most boats are between 25 inches to more than 30 inches wide, except for > > the Khatsalano which has 22 inches of beam. I am still waiting to see > > a commercially available folding kayak with 21 inches or less of beam. > > There was one in recent years, the Nautiraid Greenlander. It was under > 20 inches wide if I recall correctly. It was almost unpaddeable and the > company basically recalled it. The company eventually replaced it with > a newer model with the same name and a 23 inch or so beam. It has never > seriously been marketed but I understand that Seda, the Nautiraid > distributor in the US, intends to re-introduce it. It may have some > changes too. I plan to test it at some point. Ralph, do you remember what the beam width of the Khatsalano without sponsons was? I don't think they sell it any longer and now have two different thicknesses of sponsons. I don't know if this has been suggested so forgive me if it has :-) but Dan might want to spend some time in both (a lot of time) to see which one he'd rather spend three weeks touring in. As far as size issue, don't backpackers head off into the woods for weeks at a time? I would think the KhatsalanoS would have at least the equivalent of two large packpacks worth of room ? The Khatsalano S was one of the boats we used on a multi-day trip to Horn Island off the Mississippi coast (story and pictures at http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/hornIs.html ) Bob had some difficulty in paddling the Khat in some windy conditions, if I remember correctly (or it could have been currents but the problem was lessened when he repacked the boat and redistributed the weight). Would folding kayaks be more sensitive to weight distribution than a similarly designed hardshell? In other words, would the folding kayak paddler have to be much more careful about weight distribution for paddling efficiency? Your suggestion about a web site for PaddleWise and a place to put info like your boat-packing information (as well as a whole lot of stuff! :-) is an excellent idea. I'll work on that and see what I can come up with and get back with PaddleWise. Cheers! Jackie _ _ _ _ _ \\ / \0/ \ / \0/ \ \\ " " `\ ,sSSs,\, )\w/( ,sSS..)/{) <<..> sSSS_v)/ \ )<*> sSS[(\_]___\ <(_/_o_o_ 'sS[_`-+---+) \----+-------+-------'---`-----\-------------') ~~~~~~~ ~~jf ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~\~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ o \ o \\ o o \\ o o ` (\ o o >jf:-) o (/ o *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
I see mainly folding kayaks in the startup day of PaddleWise. I hope we can switch to other subjects. Folding kayaks bore me :-) Jackie Fenton wrote: > Ralph, do you remember what the beam width of the Khatsalano without sponsons > was? I don't think they sell it any longer and now have two different > thicknesses of sponsons. The original, which came out without sponsons, was around 22 inch in beam. Prototypes were real tough to paddle and, even the production one that came out, scared the bejeez out of all but the most skilled of greenland-accustomed paddlers. I know when I first tested the first prototype, I could hardly let go of the dock and quickly switched to a hardshell!!! As I learned later, the boat wanted to rest on somewhat on its side. Given winter paddling conditions and even wearing a dry suit, I didn't want to learn how far to the side it wished to rest!!! The reason that they no longer offer a strictly non-sponsoned one was the delicate nature of the boat's stability. The replacement with smallish sponsons is convertible, i.e. you can blow up the sponsons or not depending on conditions and your own comfort factor. > me if it has :-) but Dan might want to spend some time in both (a lot of > time) to see which one he'd rather spend three weeks touring in. As far > as size issue, don't backpackers head off into the woods for weeks at a > time? I would think the KhatsalanoS would have at least the equivalent of > two large packpacks worth of room ? Well certainly in that direction. Anytime you think of a backpack for hiking and the stuff that goes into, you pretty much have somewhat similar space in just about any kayak. The Khatsalano S was one of the boats > we used on a multi-day trip to Horn Island off the Mississippi coast (story > and pictures at http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/hornIs.html ) Bob had some > difficulty in paddling the Khat in some windy conditions, if I remember > correctly (or it could have been currents but the problem was lessened when > he repacked the boat and redistributed the weight). Would folding kayaks > be more sensitive to weight distribution than a similarly designed hardshell? > In other words, would the folding kayak paddler have to be much more careful > about weight distribution for paddling efficiency? The Khats in any of its forms is susceptible to weathercocking under some wind conditions. It was the trial test of the prototype on a camping trip that convinced the designers to add a rudder as an option (and now standard) even though it was not a purist solution. I don't believe that folding kayaks are any different in how you load them for certain sea and wind conditions. What matters more is commonality of design. A folding kayak that resembles a certain model hardshell will be equally sensitive to how gear weight is distributed. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
At 03:14 PM 1/28/98 -0800, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: >I see mainly folding kayaks in the startup day of PaddleWise. I hope we >can switch to other subjects. Folding kayaks bore me :-) > To liven up the list I have a question that I really want answered and not be thrown off the list for,( No I am not Tim Sp*ns*n ) Has any one really had any experience with sponsons? In real life. I would not buy them because of tim but can see that they could be good for some circumstance but not for others. Most of the post on that other list were about tim or scientific but I have learned that real use will tell the truth.( Scientific - Bumble bees can't fly) I do not know any one that has used them or owns them that will admit to it, so all I have is a negative feeling. thanks I hope Dana PS sorry Jackie for using this list in vain with this post. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
> From: dldecker_at_mediaone.net > > At 03:14 PM 1/28/98 -0800, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > >I see mainly folding kayaks in the startup day of PaddleWise. I hope we > >can switch to other subjects. Folding kayaks bore me :-) > > > > To liven up the list I have a question that I really want answered and not > be thrown off the list for,( No I am not Tim Sp*ns*n ) Has any one really > had any experience with sponsons? In real life. I would not buy them > because of tim but can see that they could be good for some circumstance > but not for others. Most of the post on that other list were about tim or > scientific but I have learned that real use will tell the truth.( > Scientific - Bumble bees can't fly) I do not know any one that has used > them or owns them that will admit to it, so all I have is a negative feeling. > > thanks I hope > Dana > > PS sorry Jackie for using this list in vain with this post. No apologies necessary, Dana. As a matter of fact, I would have eventually done the same because I *too* have had questions about sponsons and their value. As well as other safety issues but felt they couldn't be discussed on Wave~Length because of the reasons I mentioned. It would appear to me that under some circumstances, sponsons might be as useful to have along as some other paddling equipment which people take as safety back-ups. Especially in the case of an injured or sick paddler. So, I applaud your question and your fairly objective approach. Tim was his worst enemy. He gave sponsons a bad name. Now, maybe we can discuss the topic logically and openly and without fear. Thanks, Dana. Jackie p.s. Larry, I'm still working on the rocket-driven kayak ascii image.... :-) _ _ _ _ _ \\ / \0/ \ / \0/ \ \\ " " `\ ,sSSs,\, )\w/( ,sSS..)/{) <<..> sSSS_v)/ \ )<*> sSS[(\_]___\ <(_/_o_o_ 'sS[_`-+---+) \----+-------+-------'---`-----\-------------') ~~~~~~~ ~~jf ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~\~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ o \ o \\ o o \\ o o ` (\ o o >jf:-) o (/ o *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
> >p.s. Larry, I'm still working on the rocket-driven kayak ascii image.... :-) > > _ _ _ > _ _ \\ / \0/ \ > / \0/ \ \\ " > " `\ > ,sSSs,\, > ,sSS..)/{) > e o o ___________ sSSS_v)/ \ > - o o_|___________| sSS[(\_]___\ > o = _at_ |___________| 'sS[_`-+---+) > \----+-------|+-------'---`-----\-------------') > ~~~~~~~ ~~jf ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~\~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ > o \ > o \\ o o > \\ o > o ` > (\ o > o >jf:-) o > (/ o > HA HA beat you to it. But I am sure yours will be better Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 28 Jan 1998 dldecker_at_mediaone.net wrote: >> >>At 03:14 PM 1/28/98 -0800, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: >>>I see mainly folding kayaks in the startup day of PaddleWise. I hope we >>>can switch to other subjects. Folding kayaks bore me :-) >>> >> >>To liven up the list I have a question that I really want answered and not >>be thrown off the list for,( No I am not Tim Sp*ns*n ) Has any one really >>had any experience with sponsons? In real life. I would not buy them >>because of tim but can see that they could be good for some circumstance >>but not for others. Most of the post on that other list were about tim or >>scientific but I have learned that real use will tell the truth.( >>Scientific - Bumble bees can't fly) I do not know any one that has used >>them or owns them that will admit to it, so all I have is a negative feeling. >> >>thanks I hope >>Dana >> >>PS sorry Jackie for using this list in vain with this post. >> i offered many times to let tim demonstrate his product, and was quite sincere in that offer... i am a handicapped paddler. i was able to roll an open canoe once, but i was much healthier then. now there isn't much chance, and i have taken up sea kayaking as an alternative to the OC1 i can unload it off the top of my short car onto my head, balance it to the shore. and paddle quite happily. if i do drop it, that's ok, as plastic was my first choice for the SK1, for that very reason... my OC1 is a 15'8" custom glass/kevlar boat, both my SK1's are 14'4" plastic [pigs]. but lord, they are fun. one's for lakes, one's for WW. i think i could have really used the sponsons, i think for the disabled they would be great. on the other hand, i am a certified OC2 WW instructor, so i have fair bracing skills, and have never come close to going over in the SK1's. but by chance i do, my options are limited. my [not so] humble opinion mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/cpr [Colorado Paddlers' Resource] http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmskc [Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club] http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmcc [Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page] http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark [personal] -- Fortune: You can't start worrying about what's going to happen. You get spastic enough worrying about what's happening now. -- Lauren Bacall *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
dldecker_at_mediaone.net wrote: > > To liven up the list I have a question that I really want answered and not > be thrown off the list for,( No I am not Tim Sp*ns*n ) Has any one really > had any experience with sponsons? In real life. I would not buy them > because of tim but can see that they could be good for some circumstance > but not for others. Most of the post on that other list were about tim or > scientific but I have learned that real use will tell the truth.( > Scientific - Bumble bees can't fly) I do not know any one that has used > them or owns them that will admit to it, so all I have is a negative feeling. > > thanks I hope > Dana Here is what I can say about sponsons, specifically the SeaWings marketed and designed by Tim Ingram: --They are extremely well-made. The bags and webbing are manufactured by Voyageur for Tim. So you can bet it is fine product. That is why he makes very little on them as what he basically gets is a royalty. The company makes other similar products for other businesses, for example the outrigger pontoons for Balogh Sail Designs. They are virtually fail-safe, as fail-safe as anything can be. They tenacious hold air with few in any cases of manufacturing defects or air loss. --Once you take the time to figure out how to set them up and do all the prepping you need to do in order to attach them in emergencies, the actual deployment of them is not very difficult, basically get one bag to the other side of the boat (you send it underneath to get there) and snap 4 fasttex buckles, you are set. But, again, you need to pre set up mating fastex buckles and shorten the straps to fit your particular boat. Heaven help you if you have not done that pre-work. You could not effect a self-rescue if you didn't. --In actual paddling conditions, they cause a minimal amount of drag. Basically they are barely touching the water if set up right and only come into play if you are being tossed around, under which conditions you might welcome their being there. I have seen this with a friend who bought an Aerius 2000, the smaller Klepper folding kayak, in its earlier version, which was quite tippy. He was uncomfortable with the boat (and eventually sold it) but for awhile he got a comfort factor by using the sponsons full time. It really hardly slowed things down, but it sure looked strange. --I know of a fellow who set up his Feathercraft K-1 for sailing and he used the sponsons as close-in outriggers. It made it possible for him to sail the boat with a Balogh rig (a pretty small 18 or so square footer). It was important to him because he was sailing alone above the Arctic Circle. The sponsons plus the ballast of all his gear created a stable platform. I have not had any personal experience with actual rescues using the things. But I have heard of several examples in which they were deployed and did save lives, or certainly gave the persons relating the stories that the sponsons had saved them. As for the military use and testing of the sponsons, Tim was telling the truth (even a weaving drunk can walk a straight line some of the time). They did test sponsons and I did see the report (I may have it around somewhere). They tested them with Klepper and Nautiraid folding kayaks. I personally fail to see why they would need them with those boats as they are quite stable in and of themselves, especially with lots of ordinance in them. My opinion, for what it is worth, is that having a set of sponsons along on club trips or group trips may not be a bad idea for an injured or a paddler who has been a bit shaken by continuing dumping. BTW, Feathercraft has included them as a self-rescue device with the Khatsalano. At one point they came standard but I don't know if that is still the case. Feathercraft's criteria is if the boat is not easy to get back in without a paddle float (true of the Khats but not of any other of their models) then they are safety conscious enough to want you to have the sponsons. However, I do not know current company policy on this. best, ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
At 04:46 PM 1/28/98 -0800, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > >My opinion, for what it is worth, is that having a set of sponsons along >on club trips or group trips may not be a bad idea for an injured or a >paddler who has been a bit shaken by continuing dumping. I agree they might come in handy during emergencies, although Ive never tried them. The problem is...where to get them. I will not under any circumstance purchase a set of Tim's. Wayne PS-Jackie is my hero. Jackie for Paddlewise Paddlequeen. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned one of the best uses for sponsons. I have a pair (as well as a paddle float and a roll "Back-Up" device). I have never had to wet-exit, so I don't know how they work in "real-life" situations as a rescue device, but it seems that they would quite useful in moderate chop on long crossings when one needs to, ahem, "heed the call of nature"--and I am not referring to the number 1 variety. (Is that sufficiently oblique to have avoided offending anyone?) Indeed I think that sponsons would be superior to a paddle float for this "application". Comments? Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Dan Hagen wrote: > > I'm surprised that no one has mentioned one of the best uses for > sponsons. I have a pair (as well as a paddle float and a roll "Back-Up" > device). I have never had to wet-exit, so I don't know how they work in > "real-life" situations as a rescue device, but it seems that they would > quite useful in moderate chop on long crossings when one needs to, ahem, > "heed the call of nature"--and I am not referring to the number 1 > variety. (Is that sufficiently oblique to have avoided offending > anyone?) Indeed I think that sponsons would be superior to a paddle > float for this "application". Comments? > > Dan Hagen > Yes, it beats the alternative solution, i.e. rafting up with some friends so you can take care of that bodily function need. One of the more hilarious of Derek Hutchinson's tales is of his North Sea crossing. He had to meet this need and rafted up with several of his companions. While they were using the occasion to have breakfast, he was getting rid of processed materials from the previous night's dinner. I think they are all still friends. :-) Actually that is one of the unheralded nice things about most folding kayaks. You can do those things in mild chop without rafting up or resorting to sponsons. My advice though is, until you get to know how to handle this function in chop, to use a borrowed boat. ;-) ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:14:29 -0800 > From: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] wide folding kayaks, design restriction? > > > > Ralph, do you remember what the beam width of the Khatsalano without sponsons > > was? I don't think they sell it any longer and now have two different > > thicknesses of sponsons. > > The original, which came out without sponsons, was around 22 inch in > beam. Prototypes were real tough to paddle and, even the production one > that came out, scared the bejeez out of all but the most skilled of > greenland-accustomed paddlers. I know when I first tested the first > prototype, I could hardly let go of the dock and quickly switched to a > hardshell!!! As I learned later, the boat wanted to rest on somewhat on > its side. Given winter paddling conditions and even wearing a dry suit, > I didn't want to learn how far to the side it wished to rest!!! I'll second this. Adding lots of ballast to the bottom of my Khat is the only thing that makes me able to paddle it at all. Once I actually did capsize in calm water. > The reason that they no longer offer a strictly non-sponsoned one was > the delicate nature of the boat's stability. The replacement with > smallish sponsons is convertible, i.e. you can blow up the sponsons or > not depending on conditions and your own comfort factor. Fortunately, Feathercraft tells me that I can send them the skin and they'll sew in the small sponsons for me. I gotta get that done.... that boat is just not seaworthy for me as is. > > time) to see which one he'd rather spend three weeks touring in. As far > > as size issue, don't backpackers head off into the woods for weeks at a > > time? I would think the KhatsalanoS would have at least the equivalent of > > two large packpacks worth of room ? 2 large backpacks? Maybe, but weirdly distributed. I don't really think there's quite that much usable room. Some of the space in the extreme bow and stern is nearly impossible to use. Also you need to be very careful about weight distribution.... > The Khatsalano S was one of the boats > > we used on a multi-day trip to Horn Island off the Mississippi coast (story > > and pictures at http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/hornIs.html ) Bob had some > > difficulty in paddling the Khat in some windy conditions, if I remember > > correctly (or it could have been currents but the problem was lessened when > > he repacked the boat and redistributed the weight). Poor packing on my part at first, coupled with an unfamiliarity with the boat. This is a boat that needs to be packed stern heavy, IMHO. It was just fine once I put all the weight in the stern. Packing a kayak is an art form, I'm convinced. Currents aren't an issue for weathercocking. -- Bob Myers InteleNet Communications, Inc. Email: bob_at_InteleNet.net 18101 Von Karman Avenue, Suite 550 Phone: 714-851-8250 x227 Irvine, CA 92612 Fax: 714-851-1088 http://www.intelenet.net/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
> From: bob_at_intelenet.net (Bob Myers) <snip> >>> and pictures at http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/hornIs.html ) Bob had some >>> difficulty in paddling the Khat in some windy conditions, if I remember >>> correctly (or it could have been currents but the problem was lessened when >>> he repacked the boat and redistributed the weight). > > Poor packing on my part at first, coupled with an unfamiliarity with the > boat. This is a boat that needs to be packed stern heavy, IMHO. It was > just fine once I put all the weight in the stern. > > Packing a kayak is an art form, I'm convinced. > > Currents aren't an issue for weathercocking. I don't think anyone said that. I think we agreed, though, that using ballast (proper distribution of weight where gear can be used as ballast) gives better control and helps in paddling both Khatsalanos. I learned the advantage of packing my Sea Lion like this some time ago. A balance of weight throughout the hull where it is heaviest just behind the paddler but not so much that the bow end sticks up out of the water. I've actually seen a boat packed such that the hull of the bow end did not touch the water. Then again, maybe the boat was warped. It was a Chinook. I don't think they are rockered, are they? Cheerios Jackie _ _ _ _ _ \\ / \0/ \ / \0/ \ \\ " " `\ ,sSSs,\, )\w/( ,sSS..)/{) <<..> sSSS_v)/ \ )<*> sSS[(\_]___\ <(_/_o_o_ 'sS[_`-+---+) \----+-------+-------'---`-----\-------------') ~~~~~~~ ~~jf ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~\~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ o \ o \\ o o \\ o o ` (\ o o >jf:-) o (/ o *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
The discussion on the beam of folding kayak is interesting. I have tinkered with some folding kayak designs just to see how the design of such boats was limited by the structure. My feeling is that the limitations in shape aren't significant. Many of the "features" of hard shell kayaks are not really advantages at all even if they do make great advertising. When I played around with models I did get the feeling that the narrower folding models might be less rigid than wider boats just because the framework can be more greatly stressed. Ralph will have a better feel for that in real life but maybe that is a contributing factor. As far as weathercocking etc. there is no reason that I can think of why a folding boat need be any better or worse than a hard-shell. It's all in the design not the structure I think. It is too bad that we don't have a good comparison between two identically shaped boats to see if the differences that we sometimes attribute to the two are really true. Unfortunately none of our mathematical methods can cope with flexible frames and skins so all we can do is analyze the shape. Cheers John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > > The discussion on the beam of folding kayak is interesting. I have tinkered > with some folding kayak designs just to see how the design of such boats > was limited by the structure. My feeling is that the limitations in shape > aren't significant. Yes, that is true. You can pretty much do anything you wish with a folding kayak or any skin boat for that matter. It is all in the frame and what you want to do with it. The Khatsalano is a good example of fairly radical design carried off by the frame setup. > > Many of the "features" of hard shell kayaks are not really advantages at > all even if they do make great advertising. When I played around with > models I did get the feeling that the narrower folding models might be less > rigid than wider boats just because the framework can be more greatly > stressed. > > Ralph will have a better feel for that in real life but maybe that is a > contributing factor. All the folding kayaks have some flex in them because they hardly ever have as many crosspieces as a regular skin on frame boat. But it depends on the manufacturer. All Folbots flop a lot. The others are much tighter. As a rule the Nautiraids may be the less floppy because they do have less intervals between frame members and the external sponsons tend to really stiffen things up somewhat more than internal sponsons. But other factors are apparent too. For example, the stiffest of the folders is the Feathercraft Short Touring model. It uses a good amount of crossribs plus square tubing which is more rigid than round. The Khats is the longest of the single folding kayaks at almost 18 feet in length. While slim, it uses an interesting strut set of deck bars that are set at angles. Years ago, I'm talking about back in the 1930s, some manufacturers used similar struts between ribs at the sides of the boat, for the same purpose, greater stiffness. > > As far as weathercocking etc. there is no reason that I can think of why a > folding boat need be any better or worse than a hard-shell. It's all in the > design not the structure I think. It is too bad that we don't have a good > comparison between two identically shaped boats to see if the differences > that we sometimes attribute to the two are really true. Unfortunately none > of our mathematical methods can cope with flexible frames and skins so all > we can do is analyze the shape. How true, I mean the measuring of what happens with flexible skin as it moves through water. I had a real lengthy article in my newsletter on the water dynamics by an award winning physicist who dealt with the issues involved. He came up with some interesting thoughts. I could reprint them here at some point. Or we could go off PaddleWise to discuss it as it can be pretty esoteric. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Jackie wrote; > Then again, maybe the boat was warped. It was a Chinook. I don't think > they are rockered, are they? They do have rocker but the boat could have been warped. When we were writing KAPER we wanted to see how the program fit the tank data. We had to find a Chinook to tale the line off and discovered the first four were so badly twisted and hogged that the lines were suspect. We finally found one that looked pretty good and were then told that there had been a change in the shape and that no one knew exactly which shape was tested in the tank. What we finally did is analyze all the boats and found that, if we ignored the twist, the predictions were all very close regardless of which set of lines we used primarily because the form coefficients and dimensions were close enough. That still didn't address the twist and it may be that a distorted boat may have caused the blip in the tank's resistance curves for the Chinook. We may never know. Cheers John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Ralph wrote; > How true, I mean the measuring of what happens with flexible skin as it > moves through water. I had a real lengthy article in my newsletter on > the water dynamics by an award winning physicist who dealt with the > issues involved. He came up with some interesting thoughts. I could > reprint them here at some point. Or we could go off PaddleWise to > discuss it as it can be pretty esoteric. > It may be esoteric but some may find it interesting. The flexibility issue seems to pop up a lot with some saying it is better and some saying it is worse. Most of this is just opinion so has to taken with a lot of salt. Something from someone looking at it with a dispassionate perspective might be useful. Cheers John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > > Ralph wrote; > > > How true, I mean the measuring of what happens with flexible skin as it > > moves through water. I had a real lengthy article in my newsletter on > > the water dynamics by an award winning physicist who dealt with the > > issues involved. He came up with some interesting thoughts. I could > > reprint them here at some point. Or we could go off PaddleWise to > > discuss it as it can be pretty esoteric. > > > It may be esoteric but some may find it interesting. The flexibility issue > seems to pop up a lot with some saying it is better and some saying it is > worse. Most of this is just opinion so has to taken with a lot of salt. > > Something from someone looking at it with a dispassionate perspective might > be useful. > John, Except for what you and I write, there is no such thing as a dispassionate perspective :-). The article is real long and has a table or two. I would like to check with the fellow about sending it to the list. For a couple of reasons. He sent it to me for exclusive use in the newsletter. The other is, that while I follow his discussion, I am in no position to elaborate further or defend specific points with clarifications etc. It is real good stuff though. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
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