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From: Craig Olson <craigo_at_az.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:55:03 -0800
Hi Folks,

'Very glad to be a part of this new list.  Kudos to the list-owners for conceiving a
spam-free semi-moderated list without commercial contributions.  Thank you!!

I've been an avid sea kayaker for several years and am more or less continually
working to improve my skills, technique & gear.  My latest kayak gear project has
been to modify my cockpit for better comfort & performance.  I usually paddle a
Current Designs Solstice GT, but the procedure should work (with enough fiddling
around) for virtually any boat.  

I enjoyed the article in Feb '98 Sea Kayaker magazine which included instructions
for building a custom seat, hip & knee braces out of gray minicell foam,
self-adhesive foam and speaker grill fabric.  The author happens to live only a few
miles away, so I paid him a visit to get some more detailed info.  Yesterday I
"sculpted" the seat bottom & installed the back band.  Today I carved the hip braces
and will start on the knee braces as soon as I have more time.  Total cost for the
materials including a $45 back band was about $112, but you could probably do better
with a little shopping around.

'Haven't tried it out on the water yet, but I already have a very good feeling about
this.  The boat is *very* comfortable - not surprising since the "butt dimples"  :-)
 were carved to fit yours truly, and overall I sense a much better contact between
my body & the boat at 3 key areas - butt, hips, and knees/thighs.  All told, I've
spent about 8 hours on it so far and anticipate about that much again before it's
completed.  The old seat in my boat was an absolute bear to remove, due primarily to
some incredibly effective adhesive they used to glue the bottom in place at 3
locations.  I had hoped to remove the seat in one piece, in case I wanted to put it
back in but I actually had to cut it into pieces to get the thing out.

Ken, the author and local paddle guru, says "you won't believe what it'll do for
your paddling!"  I can't confirm that yet (give me a couple weeks) but, so far so
good!

Anybody here have experience with this?  Stories to tell?

Craig Olson
Bellingham, Washington
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From: <dldecker_at_mediaone.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:08:07 -0500
At 12:55 PM 1/28/98 -0800, Craig Olson wrote
>
>I've been an avid sea kayaker for several years and am more or less
continually
>working to improve my skills, technique & gear.  My latest kayak gear
project has
>been to modify my cockpit for better comfort & performance. 



I had talked to Nigel Foster about a seat and his opinion was to get a bag
of  plaster of paris a garbage bag,mix it and pour in the bag and sit on
it. It will take a impression of your perfect seat.Every dimple etc.
Then when dry clean and smooth. Wax and apply fiberglass cloth and resin to
form a mold. then smooth any thing and wax and lay up a seat. Needless to
say it is a perfect fit and I never had to use padding again, just the
perfect seat. I have built four kayaks and used the seat in each with the
same results. It only fits me but I am selfish and don't care. It is the
BEST seat available period. My opinion of course and I am associated with
my seat.

Dana

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From: <Roger.Korn_at_radisys.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 14:23:00 -0800
"Be kind to thine ass, for it bears thee" -- Holy Bible, I forget where.

Roger


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From: <dldecker_at_mediaone.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:43:34 -0500
At 02:23 PM 1/28/98 -0800, Roger.Korn_at_radisys.com wrote:
>
>"Be kind to thine ass, for it bears thee" -- Holy Bible, I forget where.
>
>Roger
>
>

I think that the four legged kind

Dana

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From: Mark Zen <canoeist_at_netbox.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:23:27 -0700 (MST)
On Wed, 28 Jan 1998 dldecker_at_mediaone.net wrote:

>>
>>At 12:55 PM 1/28/98 -0800, Craig Olson wrote 

>>> I've been an avid sea
>>> kayaker for several years and am more or less continually working to
>>> improve my skills, technique & gear.  My latest kayak gear project has
>>> been to modify my cockpit for better comfort & performance.

>>
>>I had talked to Nigel Foster about a seat and his opinion was to get a bag
>>of  plaster of paris a garbage bag,mix it and pour in the bag and sit on
>>it. It will take a impression of your perfect seat.Every dimple etc.
>>Then when dry clean and smooth. Wax and apply fiberglass cloth and resin to
>>form a mold. then smooth any thing and wax and lay up a seat. Needless to
>>say it is a perfect fit and I never had to use padding again, just the
>>perfect seat. I have built four kayaks and used the seat in each with the
>>same results. It only fits me but I am selfish and don't care. It is the
>>BEST seat available period. My opinion of course and I am associated with
>>my seat.
>>
>>Dana
>>

that's harsh dana, selfish ... as my kid would say: sit on it ;-)
how appropriate ;-)  i've always wanted to tell someone that!!
thanks, 

i feel better

paddle on!!

mark

#------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com--------------------------------------
mark zen                      o,    o__              o_/|   o_.
po box 474                   </     [\/              [\_|   [\_\
ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----')      (`----|-------\-')
#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~
http://www.diac.com/~zen/cpr   [Colorado Paddlers' Resource]  
http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmskc [Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club]  
http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmcc  [Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page] 
http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark  [personal]
--
Fortune:
You can't start worrying about what's going to happen.  You get spastic
enough worrying about what's happening now.
		-- Lauren Bacall

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From: <dldecker_at_mediaone.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:45:09 -0500
>>>BEST seat available period. My opinion of course and I am associated with
>>>my seat.
>>>
>>>Dana
>>>
>
>that's harsh dana, selfish ... as my kid would say: sit on it ;-)
>how appropriate ;-)  i've always wanted to tell someone that!!
>thanks, 
>
>i feel better
>
>paddle on!!
>
>mark
>
  

 I felt your pain but with the custom seat I don't feel it any more

dana

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From: Craig Olson <craigo_at_az.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 14:52:23 -0800
Dana Decker wrote:
> I had talked to Nigel Foster about a seat and his opinion was to get a bag
> of  plaster of paris a garbage bag,mix it and pour in the bag and sit on
> it. It will take a impression of your perfect seat.Every dimple etc.
> Then when dry clean and smooth. Wax and apply fiberglass cloth and resin to
> form a mold. then smooth any thing and wax and lay up a seat. Needless to
> say it is a perfect fit and I never had to use padding again, just the
> perfect seat. I have built four kayaks and used the seat in each with the
> same results. It only fits me but I am selfish and don't care. It is the
> BEST seat available period. My opinion of course and I am associated with
> my seat.
> 
> Dana

Brutally cool, Dana.  There's something utterly satisfying about carving "butt
dimples" when the butt in question is mine!  You know, like, the hell with *your*
butt!  Thanks for your plaster of Paris idea, too.  I might try that in my spare
boat, but not until I get this "foam art" thing happening.

Craig Olson
Bellingham, Washington
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From: Jim Champoux <jim_at_sigall.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 18:26:10 +0300
>Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 18:23:55 +0300
>To: "Craig Olson" <craigo_at_az.com>
>From: Jim Champoux <jim_at_sigall.com>
>Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>>Dana Decker wrote:
>>> I had talked to Nigel Foster about a seat and his opinion was to get a bag
>>> of  plaster of paris a garbage bag,mix it and pour in the bag and sit on
>etc..
>
>Hey would 2 part foam in a garbage bag work? seems it would require less
>sit time. hmmm. The garbage bag probably wouldnt come off...maybe sprayed
>with silicone or something?
>
>

Jim Champoux


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From: <dldecker_at_mediaone.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:06:03 -0500
>>>Dana Decker wrote:
>>>> I had talked to Nigel Foster about a seat and his opinion was to get a
bag
>>>> of  plaster of paris a garbage bag,mix it and pour in the bag and sit on
>>etc..
>>
>>Hey would 2 part foam in a garbage bag work? seems it would require less
>>sit time. hmmm. The garbage bag probably wouldnt come off...maybe sprayed
>>with silicone or something?
>>
>>
>
>Jim Champoux
>

Don't know but give it a try and tell us good or bad.

dana

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From: Doug Barnard <dbarnard_at_virtualacreage.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:47:16 -0800
At 04:06 PM 1/28/98 , dldecker_at_mediaone.net wrote:
>>>>Dana Decker wrote:
>>>>> I had talked to Nigel Foster about a seat and his opinion was to get a
>bag
>>>>> of  plaster of paris a garbage bag,mix it and pour in the bag and sit on
>>>etc..
>>>
>>>Hey would 2 part foam in a garbage bag work? seems it would require less
>>>sit time. hmmm. The garbage bag probably wouldnt come off...maybe sprayed
>>>with silicone or something?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Jim Champoux
>>
>
>Don't know but give it a try and tell us good or bad.



Be careful! Chemical reactions like this usually give off some heat. Foam
is about the hardest thing to get off that I know about, so be sure to
drape and tarp and mask to the best of your ability.

Though it would be pretty funny to watch someone running around
frantically, with a hot garbage bag full of foam stuck to their butt! Can I
watch you try?

Maybe some old long underware with plastic worn underneath? Won't it be all
wrinkly from the garbage bag?



________________________________________________________________
Doug Barnard                               Virtual Acreage
Agoura, California (near L.A.)        Visualization in 2D/3D/4D
http://www.iswest.net/~dbarnard             818-991-9328
                                          
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From: Jim Champoux <jim_at_sigall.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:52:06 +0300
doug barnard wrote...

>Be careful! Chemical reactions like this usually give off some heat. Foam
>is about the hardest thing to get off that I know about, so be sure to
>drape and tarp and mask to the best of your ability.

It is *very* sticky. BTW have you ever seen those pre-packaged packing
things which are essentially a sealed plastic bag with A and B vials
inside. You crack 'em and throw the bag into a shipping box, place the
to-be-shipped item on top, then crack another one and toss it on top, then
tape the box closed? apparently they have the quantity/expansion/box size
thing worked out.
>
>Though it would be pretty funny to watch someone running around
>frantically, with a hot garbage bag full of foam stuck to their butt!

I think your right, I think I would stay away from that crack filling stuff.

>
>Can I watch you try?
I dont think so.. but I think John Winters mentioned something about a
bathing suit and Vaseleine...John, were they Speedos?..and...hey wait a
minute, this didnt have anything to do with the "Charlene" incident did it?



>Maybe some old long underware with plastic worn underneath? Won't it be all
>wrinkly from the garbage bag?

yeah..I think the plaster idea is better....


Jim Champoux


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From: wayne steffens <wsteffen_at_skypoint.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:16:04 -0600
 I havent caught this whole thread so excuuuuuuse me if I'm repeating
something. Rubber Rope in Watersmeet MI makes some dandy foam products
which Ive seen people use for removeable/adjustible cockpit fitting. Glue
some velcro strips on the cockpit and shaped foam, and they go in and out
as needed, and no flaming butts involved The foam comes in 3-4 inch thick
planks. I havent custom fitted my seat, but i use a slab of it in front of
my bulkhead in lieau of footpegs.


Wayne

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From: <dldecker_at_mediaone.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:25:29 -0500
>Though it would be pretty funny to watch someone running around
>frantically, with a hot garbage bag full of foam stuck to their butt! Can I
>watch you try?
>Doug Barnard                               Virtual Acreage
>Agoura, California (near L.A.)        Visualization in 2D/3D/4D
>http://www.iswest.net/~dbarnard             818-991-9328
>                                          
>


Jackie, Please some art work depicting that 

Dana

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From: Mark Zen <canoeist_at_netbox.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:23:16 -0700 (MST)
On Wed, 28 Jan 1998 dldecker_at_mediaone.net wrote:

>>
>>>>>BEST seat available period. My opinion of course and I am associated with
>>>>>my seat.
>>>>>
>>>>>Dana
>>>>>
>>>
>>>that's harsh dana, selfish ... as my kid would say: sit on it ;-)
>>>how appropriate ;-)  i've always wanted to tell someone that!!
>>>thanks, 
>>>
>>>i feel better
>>>
>>>paddle on!!
>>>
>>>mark
>>>
>>  
>>
>> I felt your pain but with the custom seat I don't feel it any more
>>
>>dana
>>

ouch, no. . . no ouch, yes i see, or i don't, or i should log off before
it gets deep.

#------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com--------------------------------------
mark zen                      o,    o__              o_/|   o_.
po box 474                   </     [\/              [\_|   [\_\
ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----')      (`----|-------\-')
#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~
http://www.diac.com/~zen/cpr   [Colorado Paddlers' Resource]  
http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmskc [Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club]  
http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmcc  [Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page] 
http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark  [personal]
--
Fortune:
You can't start worrying about what's going to happen.  You get spastic
enough worrying about what's happening now.
		-- Lauren Bacall


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From: Philip Wylie <pjwylie_at_planet.eon.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:08:06 -0700
Hello Craig,

Thanks to your post I ran out and purchased the latest issue
of Sea Kayaker for just the reason of the custom seat info.
Many thanks for the tip.

Regards,

Philip Wylie
Edmonton,Alberta
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From: John Winters <735769_at_ican.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:01:07 -0500
The plaster method is the one that many boat builders use and probably why
their seats fit some people really well and others so poorly. One of the
problems with the foam method suggested is that the foam gets bloody hot
and you can get some rather severe burns to delicate parts if you sit down
on it while it is curing. Also it doesn't really foam uniformly. I
recommend you stay away from the foam. When I did the plaster method, I
wore a tight fitting swim suit and smeared it with Vaseline. It worked
nicely but you have to be somewhat careful not to put all your weight on it
while it is curing because  your butt will flatten out a bit in you will
get too much contact around your ischeal tuberosities (Spelling?). The way
the experts do it is to build a seat with thousands of  pressure sensors.
They measure the pressure all over the seat and then adjust the seat to
reduce local pressures that might cause discomfort.

Two years ago I worked on a racing canoe for paraplegics. These guys really
know about seats.  

If you are interested in the world's most comfortable seat, hie yourself
down to one of those stores that specializes in devices for the
handicapped. They may have one of the air filled gismos that is used by
wheel chair athletes (looks like a bunch of black peanuts on end stuck to a
pad) Talk about heaven! They are expensive. There are foam alternatives
made by some small companies that are close to being as good but less
expensive. They mix and match different foam densities to get the proper
support for all your parts. (Your butt is a complicated thing when you hear
the experts talk about it). 


Cheers
John Winters
Redwing Designs
Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft
http://home.ican.net/~735769/



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From: Mark Zen <canoeist_at_netbox.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 16:46:22 -0700 (MST)
On Thu, 29 Jan 1998 dldecker_at_mediaone.net wrote:

>>
>>>Though it would be pretty funny to watch someone running around
>>>frantically, with a hot garbage bag full of foam stuck to their butt! Can I
>>>watch you try?
>>>Doug Barnard                               Virtual Acreage
>>
>>Jackie, Please some art work depicting that 
>>
>>Dana
>>

she's probably resting after giving birth to a big list list this (forgive
me jackie ;-) i admire a person who stands on her own two feet...


#------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com--------------------------------------
mark zen                      o,    o__              o_/|   o_.
po box 474                   </     [\/              [\_|   [\_\
ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----')      (`----|-------\-')
#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~
http://www.diac.com/~zen/cpr   [Colorado Paddlers' Resource]  
http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmskc [Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club]  
http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmcc  [Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page] 
http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark  [personal]
--
Fortune:
"A man is not finished when he is defeated.
	He is finished when he quits."
		-Richard M. Nixon

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From: John Winters <735769_at_ican.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 06:49:57 -0500
Jim wrote;

(SNIP)

> I dont think so.. but I think John Winters mentioned something about a
> bathing suit and Vaseleine...John, were they Speedos?..and...hey wait a
> minute, this didnt have anything to do with the "Charlene" incident did
it?

Don't recall what kind of swimming trunks. Must have been cheap though.
Keep in mind that plaster gets hot too and you need something down there
besides Vaseline. 

I used the same technique in making and canoe yoke mold. Used burlap to
reinforce the plaster.

I met Charlene before my plaster episode. Not sure how she would have
reacted to that. She never liked my sailing friends so I doubt if her sense
of humor could have coped with watching me cure.


Cheers
John Winters
Redwing Designs
Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft
http://home.ican.net/~735769/ 




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