Re: [Paddlewise] Paddling Group Dynamics

> From: Leander <overfall_at_ix.netcom.com>

> 
> Interesting decision...although I don't think I could ever be comfortable
> agreeing to that, for several reasons. Part of it is coming from a
> background of things like boating, wildnerness camping and mountaineering,
> in which we understood that we would render aid when needed, even to
> strangers, and that it was everyone's responsibility to not only take care
> of themselves, but to take care of the others, should they get into trouble. 

Hi Leander,

I understand what you are saying.  This was what I learned when I paddled
with river kayakers.  But I'm not sure it's a good lesson for sea kayakers
(maybe even for river runners?)...  the idea that it is everyone's 
responsibility to take care of others.  This lesson might have serious
consequences.  When I first started sea kayaking some time, back, two other 
paddlers and I found ourselves in adverse weather conditions where we agreed 
to stay together on a four-mile crossing "for safety reasons."  To make a 
long story short, the other two were paddling decked boats, I was paddling 
a sit-on-top (tub full of water) making my going rather slow.  Conditions 
worsened and the other two panicked and took off.  I found myself paddling 
alone for hours without proper equipment struggling through some mighty nasty 
stuff which I would never have chosen to paddle alone.  I hear this happens 
a lot.  My previous white water experience (along with fear and a major dose 
of raw anger) saw me through the incident.  The lesson I learned from that 
episode is that real safety resides in yourself... *your* judgment skills 
and *your* paddling skills and always being prepared to paddle alone, even 
when paddling with a group.  You never know what may happen.  I never 
expected the two friends to panic and desert me.  How could I have?  We all
learned the lesson as river runners that there would be someone there who 
would come to our aid if we got into trouble... the value in paddling in a
group... ?

Also, I'm not sure of John's complete story, yet, and I certainly don't 
know what was going on in their minds.  One thing I've learned in these 
paddling lists is there are always things I can learn :-)

Another point I've mulled over in my mind is that I'm not sure how different 
this would be than other sports where participants, once they are into the
activity, are not able to come to the aid of their buddies.  Such as sky 
diving, or hang gliding, or any number of competitive sports where 
participants do not expect their fellow participant (some being close 
friends) to come to their aid.  

>    Sometimes folks would get into trouble without realizing it was
> occuring...like gradually becoming hypothermic on a winter climb, for
> instance. Usually it was someone other than the victim who picked up on
> what was happening, and the group would take measures to reverse things
> early on (often against the "I'm ok" protests of the one becoming
> hypothermic). Then of course there was heat exhaustion, injuries, fatique,
> or sometimes simply paralyzing fear (I really hate dealing with that one,
> because you never really know what they'll do next).

This all sort of goes back to the point John Winters made earlier about
people assuming more risks for themselves when they believe they have a
safety net.  How would these individuals react if they were on their own?
Why should they behave in such irresponsible ways and possibly endanger
others?  Some paddlers believe they are safer paddling alone than in a
group.  I've been on trips where I would have to agree with this philosophy.

>    But from the seakayaking point of view, if you lump it in with boating
> in general, it is kind of the rule of the sea that you aid any boat in
> trouble, if it is possible to render aid  without sinking your own vessel.
> If you can't render aid, then stand by, again if possible. Granted, these
> traditions come from offshore sailing history, but I think this universal
> comraderie, so to speak, is what one thing that makes boating special. It
> also underlies a knowledge that in any battle with the sea, the ocean
> wins...kind of maintains a healthy respect for the elements.

Maybe to some, part of the challenge is testing their skills as many do in
many physical activities which I don't understand at all but doesn't mean
they don't get something from it :-)  Like... I don't understand ramming
cars into each other until there's only one left driveable.  Sounds like
LA freeways during the rainy season, to me... :-)  

>    I would hate to have kayaking go the way of so much of our world, with
> an "everyone for themselves, you're on your own" attitude. More
> importantly, if someone traveling in my group died because the rest of us
> couldn't be bothered to try saving them, I would probably never enjoy the
> sport again. Not because someone died, but because no one tried to stop it.

I would feel that way, also.  That's why I don't think I would be a good
candidate for such a challenge.  It's a different type of group dynamics, 
though, and it appears that all participants agreed to go solo in John's
situation.  

>    If the conditions are so rough that you would be unable to assist
> another kayaker, and you have a choice of launching or not, is it really
> worth launching (kind of like would you climb a mountain in a blizzard)? 

Some do.  I've read that frozen corpses of climbers are scattered about the 
top of Mt. Everest.  Climbers pass them on the way to the top.  Some know
the risks and make the choice.  Some make the choice and deny the risks.
For those that climb the mountain in the blizzard, they are looking for a
different experience than than the average climber, maybe?  

> If
> you're already out there and things get dicey...well, in the
> retrospectoscope, usually the situation could have been averted if we'd
> done our homework beforehand, or been paying attention while out there
> (which has never helped me in the middle of such a predicament).  
>    A lot of folks feel that independence is an extremely important thing,
> and that is true...but that changes in a group. I remember one very

But what if everyone in the group, 100% of its members, agree that they are
no longer a group and they are all independent?

> independent hiker who liked to let less expert hikers tag along, but would
> be concerned only with maintaining his schedule. He never saw when they
> were pushed too far, even when they said they needed to rest. By the time
> things got really bad, he would leave them behind to "go get help" and have
> these really dramatic sagas getting help...but sometimes the people he left
> behind died or had body parts amputated.  

I think the difference might be there was not an agreement among highly 
experienced hikers to proceed independently with proper skills to see them
through.   Maybe?

>    As expert as his skills in backcountry were, I do not consider him a
> hero or even a save companion. So what does this have to do with kayaking?
> I see the same process rearing its ugly head here...it's harder to render
> aid on water than it is on land. Maybe because of that, it's more critical
> to do so.

I'm not sure what I see yet as I have never had the opportunity to read 
John's entire story.  I'm hoping to learn something here that maybe I 
haven't thought of yet?  But I don't get the impression that John Winters 
would proceed on such a trip without serious considerations.  This is why 
I've been so interested in knowing more about the trip (rather than be left 
with Tim's incoherent rantings) and felt really frustrated because we could 
not explore it more on the other list.  

>    I would be interested to know how others approach this issue.
> Leander

Yes, I think this could be a very interesting discussion.  It might be 
hard for some to separate John's trip from incidents we've found ourselves
in like the independent hiker you mention above.  But I think there may be
important and significant differences.  This is what I am guessing until I
learn more.  I'm all ears...errr... eyeballs :-)

Cheers,

Jackie

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