Re: [Paddlewise] Group Dynamics (longish)

> I think the "dangers" of my Labrador trip were less than the dangers in 
> writing about it. :-)

Yup :-)  And I appreciate your agreeing to participate in this discussion,
especially after Tim Ingram's abuse on the subject.  I thought there would
be a lot more to this story than what was represented by Tim.  It was 
frustrating to me to not be able to discuss it for clarification previously
when Tim was engaged in his outrageous accusations.

> The trip:

<Big Snip>

> Our decision;

<snip>

> key word is "risk".  There was no agreement to "never" rescue anyone. The 
> agreement was "not to risk life to rescue someone". There is a huge 
> difference not often perceived by those who have not encountered severe 
> conditions. 

.....

> Second, the trip did not require that everyone survive in order to complete 
> it. In other words, three, two or even one person could survive. No one was 
> expected to commit suicide for the sake of another. Which is preferable, we 
> asked, that no one survive or that as many a possible survive? We chose the 
> latter. To refuse to risk one's life is not suicide as Tim Ingram seemed to 
> think. To deliberately risk one's life, on the other hand, may be suicidal. 
> Refusing to risk one's life may not be noble but it is not suicidal. 
>  
> Third, This decision did not mean that we would not offer help when it was 
> needed. Each of us was expected to base a decision to help upon our 
> experience.  While we did not have occasion to help anyone, we could have 
> and would have if it were safe to do so. 

This was Tim's biggest misrepresentation and what confused or puzzled me most
because of that.  The facts are not only clear now, but make sense to me.

> Fourth, The decision to risk one's life must be taken in a larger context. 
> For instance, I would have been willing to risk my life to save my wife if 
> she were on the trip because life without her is meaningless. As much as I 
> liked Tia, Bill, and George, none of them is quite so important as my wife 
> and to sacrifice my life for someone of lesser value is insupportable and 
> a denial of self worth. (For a philosophical discussion of this view Ayn 
> Rand's "On Selfishness" is worth reading. In our case, the group was 
> important but not so important as the individual. Where the group supported 
> and nurtured individual goals its actions are supported by the individual. 
> Where the group is destructive or group behaviour is destructive to i
> ndividual goals then the group recedes in importance. 

This is quite understandable to me.  The other day, I heard a report from
LA City Fire Department Capt. Steven Ruda that last year 900 lives were 
lost in swift water (I'm assuming he meant all of the US, but I could be
wrong).  Of those 900 lost, 1/3 were swift water rescuers.  These are hard
figures to contemplate but maybe help to punctuate the very seriousness 
of rescue attempts in bad conditions even when the experts are called in.  
Last year I watched TV coverage of a couple whose sailboat had wrecked on 
the west coast (I think it may have been Oregon).  Three coastguard 
helicopter rescuers lost their lives attempting to rescue the couple.  
Of course, these are individuals who have dedicated their lives to the 
rescue of others.  It is what they do.  But these kinds of statistics or 
figures are still very sobering.  

> Finally, Richard asked about emergency rations. I have a  policy on that too 
> that I mentioned on Wavelength once. I always travel with at least one 
> vegetarian. In this way there will be no arguments about who gets eaten 
> first should we run out of regular food. One might ask if a vegetarian can 
> be expected to keep his or her end of the bargain. In my experience they can. 


And all you vegetarians should consider yourselves duly warned regarding long 
trips into the wilderness with John Winters.  :-)

Thanks, John.  This is quite a different picture than what was painted by
Tim.  That guy paints with a strange brush, I tellya.

Cheers,

Jackie
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