This was forwarded to me and I thought it might be of interest to the group, especially those of us that paddle whitewater also. Alice > >Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:31:43 -0500 > >From: CHARLIE WALBRIDGE <cwal_at_compuserve.com> > >Subject: Near Miss Report 1997 > >Close Calls 1997 > > > >Near misses have a lot to teach paddlers because they serve as an early > >warning system for future accidents. They also show how ordinary paddlers > >work successfully under pressure, ideas which can help you if you face a > >similar problem yourself. they also help us develop new skills for > >avoiding and dealing with trouble. Although many close calls are never > >reported outside of the small groups that regularly paddle together, those > >which are sent to us are always interesting. I received ten reports in > >1997. I’d like to thank those who sent them in for their generosity, and to > >encourage anyone who survives such an experience (or hears about one) to > >share it with the readers of American Whitewater. > > > >Slim Ray forwarded a near-miss report from the AKC website > >(www.alpine-kayak-club.org) that occurred on the Amahac River in Mexico. > >Rip Harwood was with a group running the river when he was shoved to the > >right side of a drop. The boulder was undercut, and he and his rodeo boat > >were shoved under the rock. His kayak pinned, he bailed out, and he was > >carried still further down. He opened his eyes, swam for the light, and > >popped out in the pool below. He was under water about 30 seconds. His boat > >and paddle never reappeared, although a pair of sandals which were not tied > >in washed through. > > > >Bill Robertson and Michael Stein from the Three Rivers Paddling Club of > >Pittsburgh were entering River’s End Rapid on the Lower Yough on July 18th > >when he noticed two people on the shore gesturing for help. It turned out > >that a woman on a self-guided raft trip with friends had fallen out of her > >raft at the top of the rapid and become wedged at the hips, head > >downstream, between Snaggletooth and the adjoining rock. She fought to keep > >her head above water but was rapidly becoming exhausted Her friends were > >in the downstream eddy but they could not get close enough to help. > > > >Bill and Michael eddied out below. Bill exited his kayak, grabbed his throw > >bag, and started to work his way across the rocks. As Michael shouted > >continuous encouragement to the trapped rafter, Bill scrambled to the top > >of a huge boulder above the accident site. Once he slipped and dropped his > >throw bag, but Michael snagged it and tossed it back to him. Bill could not > >see his target from the top of the rock, so he threw the rope in upstream > >so it could drift to the target drift to where it was needed. The rope > >allowed the woman to pull herself free. Thanks to their alert action she > >was able to continue the trip after a brief rest. > > > >On July 20th there was a near-miss on the Limestone Run of California’s > >Kern River. Four kayakers, two using older small-cockpit kayaks and two > >using sit-on-tops, were attempting this Class IV run at 920 cfs, a very low > >level. At Joe’s Diner one of the boaters pinned end-to-end at the bottom, > >between a mid-stream rock and the right shore. After several minutes he > >flipped and tried to extricate himself, but he was quite tall (6’2) and > >cold not do so. He was under water for 1-2 minutes before other members of > >the group could get to him. Dan Mulvahill, who submitted this report, > >arrived at the scene just after the victim was revived with CPR! The victim > >is doing fine, with no problems except some residual pain in his legs from > >a too-small cockpit. > > > >Eric Hendrickson dropped me a line about a close call at Coliseum Rapid on > >West Virginia’s Cheat River. With the Albright Gauge reading 3.0’ a woman, > >paddling second to last, missed the narrow right hand line and pinned under > >a huge log pinned against a giant rock on the left shore. Radwan Hallaba, > >the sweep boater landed on river left and quickly climbed out onto the log. > >He held the woman’s head above water until reinforcements arrived from > >downstream. With the additional manpower they were able to release the > >boat. The woman was shaken, but able to paddle out. > > > >A single-person oar raft missed an eddy and was flipped by a river-wide > >strainer on Tumwater Canyon of Washington’s Wenachee River on August 30th. > >This steep, class V run was carrying 1250 cfs, a low but prudent level. As > >the boat went over the rafter’s legs became entangled. When the raft hung > >up under the log it left him hanging in the current with his head barely > >above the surface. His friends supported his body and took over 15 minutes > >to free him. He was taken to a hospital where he was treated and released. > >The raft was released from the strainer the next day. > >A channel cut below the powerhouse at Thunder Rock carries water to the > >Lower Ocoee River in Tennessee Crede Calhoun reported to rec.boats.paddle > >that a very nasty hole is created when water from the Upper Ocoee drops > >into this channel. He witnessed a female boater get trashed and > >recirculated there. A companion made a daring boat rescue and plucked her > >from the hole. An article in the Tennessee Valley Canoe Club Newsletter > >reports a similar incident in which throw ropes were required to get the > >paddler out. Several rafts also got stuck here and needed ropes to escape > >also. > >A New Hampshire man almost drowned after falling out of a commercial raft > >at Little Poplar Hill Falls on the Dead River in Maine. This is one of the > >fall high-water weekends when 5500 cfs is let go, turning the Dead into a > >wild big-water roller coaster. He was one of four paddlers who fell out of > >the boat. Three were plucked from the river by their guide, but David > >Thompson, 31, was recirculated in a hole. Guides from another company > >pulled him from the river and began rescue breathing. An ambulance was > >called; Thompson was taken to a local hospital where he was treated and > >released. > >Rescue Magazine reported that on the afternoon of October 6 three > >individuals, paddling a tandem canoe and a kayak, accidentally ran the 30’ > >Sandstone Falls on the New River downstream of Hinton, WV. Two managed to > >swim to shore, but a third was trapped at on a rock in a narrow chute at > >the base of the falls. For nine hours NPS Rangers, rescue squad personnel, > >and a Coast Guard helicopter attempted to reach him. The rescue was only > >completed after the corps of engineers closed all the gates at Bluestone > >Dam, lowering the water level enough that a park ranger could reach him by > >boat. > > > >American Whitewater’s Steve Taylor, who serves as a liaison between the > >paddling community and law enforcement authorities on the Lower Potomac > >near Washington from Great Falls to Tidewater, reported a very unsettling > >incident. The river rose sharply following heavy rains, then dropped to 6’ > >on November 11th, veteran’s day. A kayaker, wearing only light polypro and > >no paddle jacket, flipped and swam the entire S-Turn and Mather Gorge from > >the Observation Deck put-in below Great Falls, a distance of several miles. > >The gorge is sheer-walled and the rapids, though not difficult, are fast > >and squirrelly at these flows. His buddy was unable to rescue him and ended > >up swimming also! The first swimmer ended up at the old George Washington > >Canal cut where a climber found him barely able to move. > > > >The climber ran to the ticket booth and reported that he had found a > >kayaker who was so cold he was delirious that he could not stand! The park > >rangers called 911. This brings out a number of different rescue squads, > >not to mention the newspapers! The rescue squads found the paddler’s > >kayaks; the boaters themselves walked out under their own power and refused > >assistance. But some very negative stories were published in the local > >papers and heard on the radio the next day. > > > >Taylor writes, “Even the best of us occasionally swim. However, turning a > >simple swim into a 911 incident by failing to wear cold weather gear has > >consequences far beyond the immediate technical and medical ones. Just as a > >wilderness river poses added risks due to its isolation, a river near a > >large city has added problems due to its visibility. In this case, these > >consequences included having to deal with the authorities, reporters, and > >the general public who may think this sort of problem is typical. We must > >therefore always be on the lookout for, and advise aggressively, any > >inexperienced boater who appears to be headed for trouble.” > > > >Will Reeves from Clemson University forwarded a report of a rescue made by > >a group of friends while making a low water (1.2) run of Section IV of the > >Chatooga River. This river forms the northern border between Georgia and > >South Carolina. It is known for its bizarre rock formations. At the end of > >Jawbone Rapid there is a large rock with a hole through it. Many people > >have swum through “Hydroelectric Rock”, but there’s always a concern that > >it could become blocked with debris. Tricky currents just upstream and > >bigger drops farther above make the drop difficult. > > > >Reeve’s friends had just run the rapid after setting throw ropes at the > >bottom. They were getting ready to leave when they heard a call for help. > >Running upriver, they saw a woman pinned against Hydro. Her kayak was > >jammed in the hole stern-first! She was stable for the time being, but it > >was a precarious situation. The group was worried that she could slip > >farther back into the hole. One person threw a rope right to her, and while > >another person downstream got out of his boat and set up a rope to act as > >safety backup. By this time others had arrived. It took four people to pull > >her upstream, out of the hole. They ferried her boat to one side and > >lowered her into a side chute so she could complete the drop. Their fast > >actions kept a dangerous situation from getting out of control. > > > >Help us learn from your experiences. Send your accounts of near-misses to > >Charlie Walbridge, American Whitewater Safety Committee, 230 Penllyn Pike, > >Blue Bell, PA 19422 phone 215-646-0157; fax 215-643-0668; email: Cwal_at_ > >Compuserve.com. If they are well written, send them directly to the editor > >of American Whitewater.
attached mail follows:
Jackie, This was forwarded to the CanoeTX list and I thought it had some learning value for those of us that also imbibe in white water. If you think it is of value to paddlewise, please forward it. If not, well, it's interesting reading. Alice > >Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:31:43 -0500 > >From: CHARLIE WALBRIDGE <cwal_at_compuserve.com> > >Subject: Near Miss Report 1997 > >Sender: CHARLIE WALBRIDGE <cwal_at_compuserve.com> > >To: Lee Belknap <RiverGypsy_at_sprintmail.com> > >Cc: Joe Pulliam <72002.305_at_compuserve.com>, > > Slim Ray <76450.3264_at_compuserve.com>, Dave Reichert <reichert_at_uthscsa.edu> > > > >Close Calls 1997 > > > >Near misses have a lot to teach paddlers because they serve as an early > >warning system for future accidents. They also show how ordinary paddlers > >work successfully under pressure, ideas which can help you if you face a > >similar problem yourself. they also help us develop new skills for > >avoiding and dealing with trouble. Although many close calls are never > >reported outside of the small groups that regularly paddle together, those > >which are sent to us are always interesting. I received ten reports in > >1997. I’d like to thank those who sent them in for their generosity, and to > >encourage anyone who survives such an experience (or hears about one) to > >share it with the readers of American Whitewater. > > > >Slim Ray forwarded a near-miss report from the AKC website > >(www.alpine-kayak-club.org) that occurred on the Amahac River in Mexico. > >Rip Harwood was with a group running the river when he was shoved to the > >right side of a drop. The boulder was undercut, and he and his rodeo boat > >were shoved under the rock. His kayak pinned, he bailed out, and he was > >carried still further down. He opened his eyes, swam for the light, and > >popped out in the pool below. He was under water about 30 seconds. His boat > >and paddle never reappeared, although a pair of sandals which were not tied > >in washed through. > > > >Bill Robertson and Michael Stein from the Three Rivers Paddling Club of > >Pittsburgh were entering River’s End Rapid on the Lower Yough on July 18th > >when he noticed two people on the shore gesturing for help. It turned out > >that a woman on a self-guided raft trip with friends had fallen out of her > >raft at the top of the rapid and become wedged at the hips, head > >downstream, between Snaggletooth and the adjoining rock. She fought to keep > >her head above water but was rapidly becoming exhausted Her friends were > >in the downstream eddy but they could not get close enough to help. > > > >Bill and Michael eddied out below. Bill exited his kayak, grabbed his throw > >bag, and started to work his way across the rocks. As Michael shouted > >continuous encouragement to the trapped rafter, Bill scrambled to the top > >of a huge boulder above the accident site. Once he slipped and dropped his > >throw bag, but Michael snagged it and tossed it back to him. Bill could not > >see his target from the top of the rock, so he threw the rope in upstream > >so it could drift to the target drift to where it was needed. The rope > >allowed the woman to pull herself free. Thanks to their alert action she > >was able to continue the trip after a brief rest. > > > >On July 20th there was a near-miss on the Limestone Run of California’s > >Kern River. Four kayakers, two using older small-cockpit kayaks and two > >using sit-on-tops, were attempting this Class IV run at 920 cfs, a very low > >level. At Joe’s Diner one of the boaters pinned end-to-end at the bottom, > >between a mid-stream rock and the right shore. After several minutes he > >flipped and tried to extricate himself, but he was quite tall (6’2) and > >cold not do so. He was under water for 1-2 minutes before other members of > >the group could get to him. Dan Mulvahill, who submitted this report, > >arrived at the scene just after the victim was revived with CPR! The victim > >is doing fine, with no problems except some residual pain in his legs from > >a too-small cockpit. > > > >Eric Hendrickson dropped me a line about a close call at Coliseum Rapid on > >West Virginia’s Cheat River. With the Albright Gauge reading 3.0’ a woman, > >paddling second to last, missed the narrow right hand line and pinned under > >a huge log pinned against a giant rock on the left shore. Radwan Hallaba, > >the sweep boater landed on river left and quickly climbed out onto the log. > >He held the woman’s head above water until reinforcements arrived from > >downstream. With the additional manpower they were able to release the > >boat. The woman was shaken, but able to paddle out. > > > >A single-person oar raft missed an eddy and was flipped by a river-wide > >strainer on Tumwater Canyon of Washington’s Wenachee River on August 30th. > >This steep, class V run was carrying 1250 cfs, a low but prudent level. As > >the boat went over the rafter’s legs became entangled. When the raft hung > >up under the log it left him hanging in the current with his head barely > >above the surface. His friends supported his body and took over 15 minutes > >to free him. He was taken to a hospital where he was treated and released. > >The raft was released from the strainer the next day. > >A channel cut below the powerhouse at Thunder Rock carries water to the > >Lower Ocoee River in Tennessee Crede Calhoun reported to rec.boats.paddle > >that a very nasty hole is created when water from the Upper Ocoee drops > >into this channel. He witnessed a female boater get trashed and > >recirculated there. A companion made a daring boat rescue and plucked her > >from the hole. An article in the Tennessee Valley Canoe Club Newsletter > >reports a similar incident in which throw ropes were required to get the > >paddler out. Several rafts also got stuck here and needed ropes to escape > >also. > >A New Hampshire man almost drowned after falling out of a commercial raft > >at Little Poplar Hill Falls on the Dead River in Maine. This is one of the > >fall high-water weekends when 5500 cfs is let go, turning the Dead into a > >wild big-water roller coaster. He was one of four paddlers who fell out of > >the boat. Three were plucked from the river by their guide, but David > >Thompson, 31, was recirculated in a hole. Guides from another company > >pulled him from the river and began rescue breathing. An ambulance was > >called; Thompson was taken to a local hospital where he was treated and > >released. > >Rescue Magazine reported that on the afternoon of October 6 three > >individuals, paddling a tandem canoe and a kayak, accidentally ran the 30’ > >Sandstone Falls on the New River downstream of Hinton, WV. Two managed to > >swim to shore, but a third was trapped at on a rock in a narrow chute at > >the base of the falls. For nine hours NPS Rangers, rescue squad personnel, > >and a Coast Guard helicopter attempted to reach him. The rescue was only > >completed after the corps of engineers closed all the gates at Bluestone > >Dam, lowering the water level enough that a park ranger could reach him by > >boat. > > > >American Whitewater’s Steve Taylor, who serves as a liaison between the > >paddling community and law enforcement authorities on the Lower Potomac > >near Washington from Great Falls to Tidewater, reported a very unsettling > >incident. The river rose sharply following heavy rains, then dropped to 6’ > >on November 11th, veteran’s day. A kayaker, wearing only light polypro and > >no paddle jacket, flipped and swam the entire S-Turn and Mather Gorge from > >the Observation Deck put-in below Great Falls, a distance of several miles. > >The gorge is sheer-walled and the rapids, though not difficult, are fast > >and squirrelly at these flows. His buddy was unable to rescue him and ended > >up swimming also! The first swimmer ended up at the old George Washington > >Canal cut where a climber found him barely able to move. > > > >The climber ran to the ticket booth and reported that he had found a > >kayaker who was so cold he was delirious that he could not stand! The park > >rangers called 911. This brings out a number of different rescue squads, > >not to mention the newspapers! The rescue squads found the paddler’s > >kayaks; the boaters themselves walked out under their own power and refused > >assistance. But some very negative stories were published in the local > >papers and heard on the radio the next day. > > > >Taylor writes, “Even the best of us occasionally swim. However, turning a > >simple swim into a 911 incident by failing to wear cold weather gear has > >consequences far beyond the immediate technical and medical ones. Just as a > >wilderness river poses added risks due to its isolation, a river near a > >large city has added problems due to its visibility. In this case, these > >consequences included having to deal with the authorities, reporters, and > >the general public who may think this sort of problem is typical. We must > >therefore always be on the lookout for, and advise aggressively, any > >inexperienced boater who appears to be headed for trouble.” > > > >Will Reeves from Clemson University forwarded a report of a rescue made by > >a group of friends while making a low water (1.2) run of Section IV of the > >Chatooga River. This river forms the northern border between Georgia and > >South Carolina. It is known for its bizarre rock formations. At the end of > >Jawbone Rapid there is a large rock with a hole through it. Many people > >have swum through “Hydroelectric Rock”, but there’s always a concern that > >it could become blocked with debris. Tricky currents just upstream and > >bigger drops farther above make the drop difficult. > > > >Reeve’s friends had just run the rapid after setting throw ropes at the > >bottom. They were getting ready to leave when they heard a call for help. > >Running upriver, they saw a woman pinned against Hydro. Her kayak was > >jammed in the hole stern-first! She was stable for the time being, but it > >was a precarious situation. The group was worried that she could slip > >farther back into the hole. One person threw a rope right to her, and while > >another person downstream got out of his boat and set up a rope to act as > >safety backup. By this time others had arrived. It took four people to pull > >her upstream, out of the hole. They ferried her boat to one side and > >lowered her into a side chute so she could complete the drop. Their fast > >actions kept a dangerous situation from getting out of control. > > > >Help us learn from your experiences. Send your accounts of near-misses to > >Charlie Walbridge, American Whitewater Safety Committee, 230 Penllyn Pike, > >Blue Bell, PA 19422 phone 215-646-0157; fax 215-643-0668; email: Cwal_at_ > >Compuserve.com. If they are well written, send them directly to the editor > >of American Whitewater.
attached mail follows:
>Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:31:43 -0500 >From: CHARLIE WALBRIDGE <cwal_at_compuserve.com> >Subject: Near Miss Report 1997 >Sender: CHARLIE WALBRIDGE <cwal_at_compuserve.com> >To: Lee Belknap <RiverGypsy_at_sprintmail.com> >Cc: Joe Pulliam <72002.305_at_compuserve.com>, > Slim Ray <76450.3264_at_compuserve.com>, Dave Reichert <reichert_at_uthscsa.edu> > >Close Calls 1997 > >Near misses have a lot to teach paddlers because they serve as an early >warning system for future accidents. They also show how ordinary paddlers >work successfully under pressure, ideas which can help you if you face a >similar problem yourself. they also help us develop new skills for >avoiding and dealing with trouble. Although many close calls are never >reported outside of the small groups that regularly paddle together, those >which are sent to us are always interesting. I received ten reports in >1997. I’d like to thank those who sent them in for their generosity, and to >encourage anyone who survives such an experience (or hears about one) to >share it with the readers of American Whitewater. > >Slim Ray forwarded a near-miss report from the AKC website >(www.alpine-kayak-club.org) that occurred on the Amahac River in Mexico. >Rip Harwood was with a group running the river when he was shoved to the >right side of a drop. The boulder was undercut, and he and his rodeo boat >were shoved under the rock. His kayak pinned, he bailed out, and he was >carried still further down. He opened his eyes, swam for the light, and >popped out in the pool below. He was under water about 30 seconds. His boat >and paddle never reappeared, although a pair of sandals which were not tied >in washed through. > >Bill Robertson and Michael Stein from the Three Rivers Paddling Club of >Pittsburgh were entering River’s End Rapid on the Lower Yough on July 18th >when he noticed two people on the shore gesturing for help. It turned out >that a woman on a self-guided raft trip with friends had fallen out of her >raft at the top of the rapid and become wedged at the hips, head >downstream, between Snaggletooth and the adjoining rock. She fought to keep >her head above water but was rapidly becoming exhausted Her friends were >in the downstream eddy but they could not get close enough to help. > >Bill and Michael eddied out below. Bill exited his kayak, grabbed his throw >bag, and started to work his way across the rocks. As Michael shouted >continuous encouragement to the trapped rafter, Bill scrambled to the top >of a huge boulder above the accident site. Once he slipped and dropped his >throw bag, but Michael snagged it and tossed it back to him. Bill could not >see his target from the top of the rock, so he threw the rope in upstream >so it could drift to the target drift to where it was needed. The rope >allowed the woman to pull herself free. Thanks to their alert action she >was able to continue the trip after a brief rest. > >On July 20th there was a near-miss on the Limestone Run of California’s >Kern River. Four kayakers, two using older small-cockpit kayaks and two >using sit-on-tops, were attempting this Class IV run at 920 cfs, a very low >level. At Joe’s Diner one of the boaters pinned end-to-end at the bottom, >between a mid-stream rock and the right shore. After several minutes he >flipped and tried to extricate himself, but he was quite tall (6’2) and >cold not do so. He was under water for 1-2 minutes before other members of >the group could get to him. Dan Mulvahill, who submitted this report, >arrived at the scene just after the victim was revived with CPR! The victim >is doing fine, with no problems except some residual pain in his legs from >a too-small cockpit. > >Eric Hendrickson dropped me a line about a close call at Coliseum Rapid on >West Virginia’s Cheat River. With the Albright Gauge reading 3.0’ a woman, >paddling second to last, missed the narrow right hand line and pinned under >a huge log pinned against a giant rock on the left shore. Radwan Hallaba, >the sweep boater landed on river left and quickly climbed out onto the log. >He held the woman’s head above water until reinforcements arrived from >downstream. With the additional manpower they were able to release the >boat. The woman was shaken, but able to paddle out. > >A single-person oar raft missed an eddy and was flipped by a river-wide >strainer on Tumwater Canyon of Washington’s Wenachee River on August 30th. >This steep, class V run was carrying 1250 cfs, a low but prudent level. As >the boat went over the rafter’s legs became entangled. When the raft hung >up under the log it left him hanging in the current with his head barely >above the surface. His friends supported his body and took over 15 minutes >to free him. He was taken to a hospital where he was treated and released. >The raft was released from the strainer the next day. >A channel cut below the powerhouse at Thunder Rock carries water to the >Lower Ocoee River in Tennessee Crede Calhoun reported to rec.boats.paddle >that a very nasty hole is created when water from the Upper Ocoee drops >into this channel. He witnessed a female boater get trashed and >recirculated there. A companion made a daring boat rescue and plucked her >from the hole. An article in the Tennessee Valley Canoe Club Newsletter >reports a similar incident in which throw ropes were required to get the >paddler out. Several rafts also got stuck here and needed ropes to escape >also. >A New Hampshire man almost drowned after falling out of a commercial raft >at Little Poplar Hill Falls on the Dead River in Maine. This is one of the >fall high-water weekends when 5500 cfs is let go, turning the Dead into a >wild big-water roller coaster. He was one of four paddlers who fell out of >the boat. Three were plucked from the river by their guide, but David >Thompson, 31, was recirculated in a hole. Guides from another company >pulled him from the river and began rescue breathing. An ambulance was >called; Thompson was taken to a local hospital where he was treated and >released. >Rescue Magazine reported that on the afternoon of October 6 three >individuals, paddling a tandem canoe and a kayak, accidentally ran the 30’ >Sandstone Falls on the New River downstream of Hinton, WV. Two managed to >swim to shore, but a third was trapped at on a rock in a narrow chute at >the base of the falls. For nine hours NPS Rangers, rescue squad personnel, >and a Coast Guard helicopter attempted to reach him. The rescue was only >completed after the corps of engineers closed all the gates at Bluestone >Dam, lowering the water level enough that a park ranger could reach him by >boat. > >American Whitewater’s Steve Taylor, who serves as a liaison between the >paddling community and law enforcement authorities on the Lower Potomac >near Washington from Great Falls to Tidewater, reported a very unsettling >incident. The river rose sharply following heavy rains, then dropped to 6’ >on November 11th, veteran’s day. A kayaker, wearing only light polypro and >no paddle jacket, flipped and swam the entire S-Turn and Mather Gorge from >the Observation Deck put-in below Great Falls, a distance of several miles. >The gorge is sheer-walled and the rapids, though not difficult, are fast >and squirrelly at these flows. His buddy was unable to rescue him and ended >up swimming also! The first swimmer ended up at the old George Washington >Canal cut where a climber found him barely able to move. > >The climber ran to the ticket booth and reported that he had found a >kayaker who was so cold he was delirious that he could not stand! The park >rangers called 911. This brings out a number of different rescue squads, >not to mention the newspapers! The rescue squads found the paddler’s >kayaks; the boaters themselves walked out under their own power and refused >assistance. But some very negative stories were published in the local >papers and heard on the radio the next day. > >Taylor writes, “Even the best of us occasionally swim. However, turning a >simple swim into a 911 incident by failing to wear cold weather gear has >consequences far beyond the immediate technical and medical ones. Just as a >wilderness river poses added risks due to its isolation, a river near a >large city has added problems due to its visibility. In this case, these >consequences included having to deal with the authorities, reporters, and >the general public who may think this sort of problem is typical. We must >therefore always be on the lookout for, and advise aggressively, any >inexperienced boater who appears to be headed for trouble.” > >Will Reeves from Clemson University forwarded a report of a rescue made by >a group of friends while making a low water (1.2) run of Section IV of the >Chatooga River. This river forms the northern border between Georgia and >South Carolina. It is known for its bizarre rock formations. At the end of >Jawbone Rapid there is a large rock with a hole through it. Many people >have swum through “Hydroelectric Rock”, but there’s always a concern that >it could become blocked with debris. Tricky currents just upstream and >bigger drops farther above make the drop difficult. > >Reeve’s friends had just run the rapid after setting throw ropes at the >bottom. They were getting ready to leave when they heard a call for help. >Running upriver, they saw a woman pinned against Hydro. Her kayak was >jammed in the hole stern-first! She was stable for the time being, but it >was a precarious situation. The group was worried that she could slip >farther back into the hole. One person threw a rope right to her, and while >another person downstream got out of his boat and set up a rope to act as >safety backup. By this time others had arrived. It took four people to pull >her upstream, out of the hole. They ferried her boat to one side and >lowered her into a side chute so she could complete the drop. Their fast >actions kept a dangerous situation from getting out of control. > >Help us learn from your experiences. Send your accounts of near-misses to >Charlie Walbridge, American Whitewater Safety Committee, 230 Penllyn Pike, >Blue Bell, PA 19422 phone 215-646-0157; fax 215-643-0668; email: Cwal_at_ >Compuserve.com. If they are well written, send them directly to the editor >of American Whitewater. > > > David Reichert Student Services The University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Boy , that white water report make Sea Kayaking seem like a safe Sport. Dana At 10:35 AM 2/17/98 -0600, wildwater wrote: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mrin1.se.mediaone.net id XAA06998 > >This was forwarded to me and I thought it might be of interest to the group, >especially those of us that paddle whitewater also. > >Alice >>Help us learn from your experiences. Send your accounts of near-misses to >>Charlie Walbridge, American Whitewater Safety Committee, 230 Penllyn Pike, >>Blue Bell, PA 19422 phone 215-646-0157; fax 215-643-0668; email: Cwal_at_ >>Compuserve.com. If they are well written, send them directly to the editor >>of American Whitewater. >> >> >> >David Reichert >Student Services >The University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio > > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Nope, Sea kayaking is not any safer than whitewater. This is a question that could only result in an ugly discussion, and therefore lets not attempt to answer it. However I would say that whitewater paddlers are much better than sea kayakers in getting safety/accident reports into the public domain. Charlie Walbridge has been actively compiling and publishing such accident reports for decades. The safety reports in Sea Kayaker are good, but still relatively rare. I think it is a lot easier to analyze risk in whitewater than in sea kayaking. Kevin /--------------------------------------------\ /---------------------------\ |Something there is that doesn't love a wall | Kevin Whilden | |That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it | kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu | |And spills the upper boulders in the sun | Dept. of Geologic Science | |And makes gaps that even two can pass abreast| University of Washington | | -- Robert Frost |(206)543-1975(w) 632-5140(h)| \--------------------------------------------/ \---------------------------/ On Tue, 17 Feb 1998 dldecker_at_mediaone.net wrote: > Boy , that white water report make Sea Kayaking seem like a safe Sport. > > Dana > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Feb 17, 1998 at 07:16:28PM -0500, dldecker_at_mediaone.net wrote: > Boy , that white water report make Sea Kayaking seem like a safe Sport. Why? The reporting of a handful of near-miss events gives absolutely no indication of the relative safety of whitewater as compared to sea kayaking. If you want to try to compare them, you'll need to look at accident rates in terms of (say) injuries/paddler-hour or some other statistical measure that lends itself to comparisons. But please don't leap to unfounded conclusions based on anecdotal evidence, which is all that Charlie was reporting. ---Rsk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Rich Kulawiec wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 17, 1998 at 07:16:28PM -0500, dldecker_at_mediaone.net wrote: > > Boy , that white water report make Sea Kayaking seem like a safe Sport. > >[snip] If you want to try to compare them, you'll need to > look at accident rates in terms of (say) injuries/paddler-hour or > some other statistical measure that lends itself to comparisons. > > But please don't leap to unfounded conclusions based on anecdotal > evidence, which is all that Charlie was reporting. Rich makes sense here. I wonder if anyone has good data on the accident RATE in the two sports? WW certainly "looks" dangerous to the uninitiated -- which may drive newbies to get some training. OTOH, sea kayaking often looks harmless, lulling folks into believing it's always benign. "Deep Trouble," the Broze/Gronseth book, is a good eye-opener for newbies to read. Goes a long ways towards emulating the accident summaries put out annually for climbers by the American Alpine Club. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Boy , that white water report make Sea Kayaking seem like a safe Sport ( notice I said seem)picky, picky Lets see #1 Amahac River in Mexico he was shoved to the > >right side of a drop. The boulder was undercut, and he and his rodeo boat > >were shoved under the rock. His kayak pinned, he bailed out, His boat > >and paddle never reappeared, Never seen that sea kayaking #2 River’s End Rapid on the Lower Yough a woman on a self-guided raft trip with friends had fallen out of her > >raft at the top of the rapid and become wedged at the hips, head > >downstream, between Snaggletooth and the adjoining rock. She fought to keep > >her head above water but was rapidly becoming exhausted never seen any one pinned in the ocean sea kayaking #3 Coliseum Rapid on West Virginia’s Cheat River. pinned under a huge log pinned against a giant rock on the left shore. Now I have seen this on a river trip sea kayaking #4 strainer on Tumwater Canyon of Washington’s Wenachee River Seen this to, water is high in the rivers now with all the rain so it is as dangerous in sea kayaking #5 Lower Ocoee River in Tennessee a female boater get trashed and recirculated there. seen this at the surf zone in the ocean #6 Little Poplar Hill Falls The first swimmer ended up at the old George Washington Canal cut where a climber found him barely able to move I'll give in on this one to because the surf would do about the same #7 Section IV of the Chatooga River. its bizarre rock formations Hydroelectric Rock Maybe if you are around sea caves when sea kayaking, but we don't have any rocks around here. So two sea kayaking not as dangerous , five about equal in the dangerous. So I stand by my statement On Tue, Feb 17, 1998 at 07:16:28PM -0500, dldecker_at_mediaone.net wrote: Boy , that white water report make Sea Kayaking seem like a safe Sport. Now driving to the put in is the really dangerous part, besides a helmet is only worn sea kayaking while playing in the surf, don't you wear one most all the time? I won't even get into the PFD issue. And yes I use to white water but 7-9 hours drive just wasn't worth it when in ten minutes I can be in the water sea kayaking. Dana At 08:11 PM 2/17/98 -0800, Dave Kruger wrote: >Rich Kulawiec wrote: >> >> On Tue, Feb 17, 1998 at 07:16:28PM -0500, dldecker_at_mediaone.net wrote: >> > Boy , that white water report make Sea Kayaking seem like a safe Sport. >> >>[snip] If you want to try to compare them, you'll need to >> look at accident rates in terms of (say) injuries/paddler-hour or >> some other statistical measure that lends itself to comparisons. >> >> But please don't leap to unfounded conclusions based on anecdotal >> evidence, which is all that Charlie was reporting. > >Rich makes sense here. I wonder if anyone has good data on the accident >RATE in the two sports? WW certainly "looks" dangerous to the >uninitiated -- which may drive newbies to get some training. OTOH, sea >kayaking often looks harmless, lulling folks into believing it's always >benign. > >"Deep Trouble," the Broze/Gronseth book, is a good eye-opener for >newbies to read. Goes a long ways towards emulating the accident >summaries put out annually for climbers by the American Alpine Club. > >-- >Dave Kruger >Astoria, OR >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >*************************************************************************** > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Rich Kulawiec wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 17, 1998 at 07:16:28PM -0500, dldecker_at_mediaone.net wrote: > > Boy , that white water report make Sea Kayaking seem like a safe Sport. > > Why? The reporting of a handful of near-miss events gives absolutely > no indication of the relative safety of whitewater as compared to > sea kayaking. If you want to try to compare them, you'll need to > look at accident rates in terms of (say) injuries/paddler-hour or > some other statistical measure that lends itself to comparisons. > > But please don't leap to unfounded conclusions based on anecdotal > evidence, which is all that Charlie was reporting. > I think we had a bit of a discussion about this two years ago, i.e. relative danger of whitewater vs. seakayaking. We didn't come up with many good answers then but I have thought about this a lot since. Rather than look at the "danger" quotient it may be better to look at the "awareness of danger" quotient. I think that the awareness-of-danger quotient in higher among people doing or entering whitewater paddling. So a person experienced or beginning in whitewater is likely to equip him/herself to the teeth with high flotation pfds, training, throw ropes (and their proper use technique), scout out waters and guage them against skill levels. The same is not necessary true of sea kayaking. You would hardly ever see a whitewater paddler without a pfd on and cold-water attire. You will often see seakayakers without either. For the most part, most any whitewater paddler does seek training or has an awareness of skill necessary to tackle certain classes of waters under different conditions. Many seakayakers haven't a clue. So in a sense, whitewater is a "safer" sport because of awareness and preparation levels. Having said that there is nevertheless a high danger level in whitewater paddling among _expert_ paddlers. There are very few cases of expert seakayakers getting killed (aside from surf kayakers). I am only aware of one or two in the last 10 years. However, in whitewater, experts do die regularly especially as they seek greater challenges. Weren't there about three or four recent such deaths highlighted in a recent issue of Paddler? Hardly a year goes by without some prominent whitewater paddler with a steller reputation getting killed. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
> Ralph Diaz wrote: > > Having said that there is nevertheless a high danger level in whitewater > paddling among _expert_ paddlers. There are very few cases of expert > seakayakers getting killed (aside from surf kayakers). I am only aware > of one or two in the last 10 years. However, in whitewater, experts do > die regularly especially as they seek greater challenges. Weren't there > about three or four recent such deaths highlighted in a recent issue of > Paddler? Hardly a year goes by without some prominent whitewater > paddler with a steller reputation getting killed. > > ralph > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Pardon my ignorance but would you not class white water kayakingas an extreme sport the same as sky-diving and would this not leave sea kayaking in the category of "recreation" (although recognizing some of the extreme circumstances which can occur on the ocean). Extreme sports seek for the maximum challenge of difficulty and the associated adrenalin rush, where as sea kayaking for the most part is recreational and accepting of dangers that can arise but not such that one goes deliberately looking for them unless they have to. Therefore would the proportion of deaths that do occur amongst white water kayakers reflect a propensity for much greater risk taking where as recreational kayakers are more conservative in their risk taking? This being true the mortality rate favours sea kayakers not because one or the other group has superior skills but rather a willingness or unwillingness to take such risks. I would certainly welome your views on this Ralph. Sincerly, Philip *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 02:22:33AM -0700, Philip Wylie wrote: > Pardon my ignorance but would you not class white water kayakingas an extreme > sport the same as sky-diving and would this not > leave sea kayaking in the category of "recreation" (although recognizing > some of the extreme circumstances which can occur on the ocean). No, whitewater kayaking is not an extreme sport; it's a recreational the sport in the same way that sea kayaking, mountain biking, skiing, and other outdoor sports are. Extreme whitewater kayaking, like extreme skiing, extreme mountain biking, etc., is an extreme sport. I hope that doesn't sound like nitpicking, for there's actually an important point in there: the overwhelming majority of whitewater paddlers do not run the class V stuff that you see on the cover of American Whitewater every month. Most whitewater paddlers are quite conservative (and I include myself in that) and stay well within their limits -- they consider it recreation, as do I, and getting hurt or killed while doing it isn't particularly appealing. ;-) (Aside: speaking of American Whitewater, many of the paddlers I know grow tired of reading of extreme first descents month after month and wish they'd write articles about rivers that J. Average Paddler can actually do without mounting an expedition. But hey, it's not our magazine, so...) > Therefore would the proportion of deaths that do occur > amongst white water kayakers reflect a propensity for much greater > risk taking where as recreational kayakers are more conservative in > their risk taking? Well, we could discuss "the risk paddlers *think* they're taking" vs. "the risk paddlers really are taking" ad infinitum, but before we get into trying to explain the "proportion of deaths" and its perceived disparity from other sports, we would need to establish just what that proportion is -- then we could debate possible explanations for why it's the same or different from other sports. ---Rsk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Philip, I think it is unreasonable to consider ALL whitewater kayaking an extreme sport. Certainly there are those within the sport who always seek to push limits and run more difficult whitewater (grade V-VI), however the majority of whitewater kayakers run far easier water (grade II-IV). I think the majority of the high profile deaths last year occured on grade V or IV whitewater (Rich K. probably knows better details on this). I also think it might be difficult for non-whitewater paddlers to appreciate the difference in difficulty or risk between the various grades of whitewater. A good start would be to consider the number of the grade as an exponent on the base number ten. Then by this measure, risk is measured similar to the Richter Scale for earthquakes, and grade V is ten times more risky than grade IV, and a 100 times more risky than grade III. I know lots of long-time whitewater paddlers who are happy as can be running nothing harder than class III with occasional class IV. Also, class III skills are relatively easy to come by. Most beginners that I teach have the skill to begin paddling class III by their second or third river trip, although it generally takes a year or more to reach solid class IV skill. It will always be my position that sea kayakers stand to gain a lot of skill by exposing themselves to whitewater. Even a two-day lesson on easy (grade I - II) whitewater would really help with bracing, edging, rolling, and general boat control. Cheers, Kevin On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Philip Wylie wrote: > > > Pardon my ignorance but would you not class white water kayakingas an extreme > sport the same as sky-diving and would this not > leave sea kayaking in the category of "recreation" (although recognizing > some of the extreme circumstances which can occur on the ocean). > > Extreme sports seek for the maximum challenge of difficulty and the > associated adrenalin rush, where as sea kayaking for the most part is > recreational and accepting of dangers that can arise but not such that > one goes deliberately looking for them unless they have to. > Therefore would the proportion of deaths that do occur > amongst white water kayakers reflect a propensity for much greater > risk taking where as recreational kayakers are more conservative in their risk > taking? > This being true the mortality rate favours sea kayakers not because one or > the other group has superior skills but rather a willingness or unwillingness > to take such risks. > > I would certainly welome your views on this Ralph. > > Sincerly, > > Philip > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
For folks who are beginner or intermediate ww paddlers, I post this each spring. Technojunkies Beware by Richard Culpeper When I began running rapids wood and canvas canoes were the norm. We knew that our boats were delicate, so swimming, or even crunching, simply was not an option. Did this restrict us? Not at all. My old Chestnut has happily danced through the Petawawa's flooded Rollway and surfed the hole at the bottom of the Ottawa's McCoy's. It is two or three times my age, and almost as heavy, but still going strong. Folks quite often ask me if I'm worried about breaking my boat, and yes, I am, but I'm far more concerned about breaking my body. If I keep my boat out of trouble, I keep myself out of trouble. Plastic canoes and kayaks, helmets, dry suits and wet suits, impact-resistant PFDs, knives, throw ropes, whistles: individually, they will make it possible for you to either run more challenging wild water or to be rescued when you mess up, so they are extremely important; collectively, they might give you a false sense of security. Remember, your body is now the weakest link in the chain. It used to be that you could not simply purchase a boat, immediately put in to serious water, and hope to return home with more than a bundle of kindling tied together with strips of #10 cotton. It took a few years of experience before you would venture beyond class III. Times have changed. My novice kayak students run class III on their first full day-trip, and class IV by the end of their first season. The technique is easy enough to learn, and the equipment is superb, but I wonder: do these new paddlers truly understand the forces with which they are playing. I doubt it. They do not realize how quickly a run can go sour. The horror of dragging or pinning are only abstract constructs. The insidious nature of hypothermia is just something from a book. As an instructor, the hardest part of my job isn't teaching technique, it's conveying the absolute necessity of conservative judgement and teamwork. When you go out this season, please keep safety at the front of your mind. Think through the possible ramifications of your actions, and communicate and work closely with others on your paddling team. You will live or die by your decisions, so don't be led down the rock garden path by the durability of your equipment. Remember, a plastic closed canoe has run Niagara Falls successfully, it's just the paddler who didn't survive. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
> Having said that there is nevertheless a high danger level in whitewater > paddling among _expert_ paddlers. There are very few cases of expert > seakayakers getting killed (aside from surf kayakers). I am only aware > of one or two in the last 10 years. However, in whitewater, experts do > die regularly especially as they seek greater challenges. Weren't there > about three or four recent such deaths highlighted in a recent issue of > Paddler? Hardly a year goes by without some prominent whitewater > paddler with a steller reputation getting killed. Yes, this does happen (and I agree with your analysis, BTW), and 1997 was an especially bad year for it. There is now a great deal of soul-searching going on -- and there darn well ought to be -- among whitewater paddlers. Personally, I respect folks' *informed* decisions to paddle whatever they want to attempt, but I hope that they are very clear on their motives before starting out, and I hope they've taken at least a moment to reflect on the impact to their family, friends, and boating community if they screw up. I do. ---Rsk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
> On Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 02:22:33AM -0700, Philip Wylie wrote: > > Pardon my ignorance but would you not class white water kayakingas an extreme > > sport the same as sky-diving and would this not > > leave sea kayaking in the category of "recreation" (although recognizing > > some of the extreme circumstances which can occur on the ocean). Rich Kulawiec wrote: > > No, whitewater kayaking is not an extreme sport; it's a recreational > the sport in the same way that sea kayaking, mountain biking, skiing, > and other outdoor sports are. Extreme whitewater kayaking, like > extreme skiing, extreme mountain biking, etc., is an extreme sport. > > I hope that doesn't sound like nitpicking, for there's actually an > important point in there: the overwhelming majority of whitewater > paddlers do not run the class V stuff that you see on the cover > of American Whitewater every month. Most whitewater paddlers are quite > conservative (and I include myself in that) and stay well within > their limits -- they consider it recreation, as do I, and getting > hurt or killed while doing it isn't particularly appealing. ;-) I was asked my view on this and I would agree with Rich wholeheartedly: whitewater is not an extreme sport unless done in extreme conditions such as those that Rich and I point out, i.e. top-flight experts seeking extreme challenges in Class V and up stuff where a mishap is likely to be deadly. Sea kayaking doesn't have an equivalent yet but I do know of seakayakers who seek out paddling in the advance of hurricanes or who enjoy getting real close to passing ships to ride their wakes. These fellows may be getting close to the edge of what the highly skilled extreme whitewater paddlers do. ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Sea kayaking doesn't have an equivalent yet but I do know of >seakayakers who seek out paddling in the advance of hurricanes or who >enjoy getting real close to passing ships to ride their wakes. These >fellows may be getting close to the edge of what the highly skilled >extreme whitewater paddlers do. > >ralph diaz What about the tsumia ( bad speller) rangers are they equivalent or just nuts Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
I think that saa kayakers are not crowded into a few areas like white water so you don't get the reports that you should. Most of what I have heard is from people who wished that others were around to help. Dana At 04:36 PM 2/17/98 -0800, K. Whilden wrote: >Nope, > >Sea kayaking is not any safer than whitewater. This is a question that >could only result in an ugly discussion, and therefore lets not attempt to >answer it. However I would say that whitewater paddlers are much better >than sea kayakers in getting safety/accident reports into the public >domain. Charlie Walbridge has been actively compiling and publishing such >accident reports for decades. The safety reports in Sea Kayaker are good, >but still relatively rare. > >I think it is a lot easier to analyze risk in whitewater than in sea >kayaking. > >Kevin > >/--------------------------------------------\ /---------------------------\ >|Something there is that doesn't love a wall | Kevin Whilden | >|That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it | kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu | >|And spills the upper boulders in the sun | Dept. of Geologic Science | >|And makes gaps that even two can pass abreast| University of Washington | >| -- Robert Frost |(206)543-1975(w) 632-5140(h)| >\--------------------------------------------/ \---------------------------/ > > > >On Tue, 17 Feb 1998 dldecker_at_mediaone.net wrote: > >> Boy , that white water report make Sea Kayaking seem like a safe Sport. >> >> Dana >> >> > > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Feb 17, 1998 at 08:37:10PM -0500, dldecker_at_mediaone.net wrote: > I think that saa kayakers are not crowded into a few areas like white water [...] I can't figure out what you mean by this. Whitewater paddlers are scattered all over the place. ---Rsk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
At 06:32 AM 2/18/98 -0500, Rich Kulawiec wrote: >On Tue, Feb 17, 1998 at 08:37:10PM -0500, dldecker_at_mediaone.net wrote: >> I think that saa kayakers are not crowded into a few areas like white water >[...] > >I can't figure out what you mean by this. Whitewater paddlers are scattered >all over the place. > >---Rsk white water paddlers are on one given river,which ever one you happen to be on.There are just a limited number of white water rivers. Sea Kayakers if in the ocean often don't see another all day , and on a river might see one or two other paddlers.A few less than you would see on some white water rivers.In that report it was other people helping out people from other groups. Around here sea kayaking you might not see any one else if you need help. Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 06:52:29PM -0500, dldecker_at_mediaone.net wrote: > white water paddlers are on one given river,which ever one you happen to > be on.There are just a limited number of white water rivers. Sea Kayakers > if in the ocean often don't see another all day , and on a river might see > one or two other paddlers.A few less than you would see on some white water > rivers.In that report it was other people helping out people from other > groups. Around here sea kayaking you might not see any one else if you need > help. I think you might be greatly underestimating the number of whitewater streams that people chose to paddle. For example, in my part of the world, it's true that most paddlers can be found on one of: Nesocopek, Lehigh, Tohickon, Black, Muddy, Shenandoah, Potomac, Gunpowder, Loyalsock, but there are about 200-250 other streams within 4 hours of here that can be run depending on flow conditions. These range from rather easy class I (Brandywine) to fairly steep creeks (Black, class III-IV) to outright screamers (Unami, IV-VI) to large rivers with big rapids (Lambertville, Delaware River, _at_ 14000 CFS). I'd say that on at least half of the trips I've done, that my companions and I were the only people that we saw on the river; this is especially true for weekday or offseason paddling. But one thing to note: most whitewater paddlers have the good sense to run rivers alone, because there are just too many things that can happen, so these paddlers are rarely encountered alone. ---Rsk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
> From: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com > > On Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 02:22:33AM -0700, Philip Wylie wrote: > > > Pardon my ignorance but would you not class white water kayakingas an extreme > > > sport the same as sky-diving and would this not > > > leave sea kayaking in the category of "recreation" (although recognizing > > > some of the extreme circumstances which can occur on the ocean). > > Rich Kulawiec wrote: > > > > No, whitewater kayaking is not an extreme sport; it's a recreational > > the sport in the same way that sea kayaking, mountain biking, skiing, > > and other outdoor sports are. Extreme whitewater kayaking, like > > extreme skiing, extreme mountain biking, etc., is an extreme sport. > > > > I hope that doesn't sound like nitpicking, for there's actually an > > important point in there: the overwhelming majority of whitewater > > paddlers do not run the class V stuff that you see on the cover > > of American Whitewater every month. Most whitewater paddlers are quite > > conservative (and I include myself in that) and stay well within > > their limits -- they consider it recreation, as do I, and getting > > hurt or killed while doing it isn't particularly appealing. ;-) > > I was asked my view on this and I would agree with Rich wholeheartedly: > whitewater is not an extreme sport unless done in extreme conditions > such as those that Rich and I point out, i.e. top-flight experts seeking > extreme challenges in Class V and up stuff where a mishap is likely to > be deadly. Sea kayaking doesn't have an equivalent yet but I do know of > seakayakers who seek out paddling in the advance of hurricanes or who > enjoy getting real close to passing ships to ride their wakes. These > fellows may be getting close to the edge of what the highly skilled > extreme whitewater paddlers do. > > ralph diaz I would say that the Tsunami Rangers fall into the category of extreme sea kayaking. Possibly some kayak surfers. I think this is the point that Rich is making about not all river paddling is class V. I think you would find significantly more class I-III river paddlers than hairboaters as you find significantly fewer "hair boaters" in sea kayaking. I wouldn't exclude kayak surfing or the Tsunami Rangers as that would be like excluding the hair boaters in ww. They are sometimes the extreme side of sea kayaking. What's interesting is that none of the Rangers has died in their extreme end of the sport. Not yet, anyhow. Besides a heavy slant on safety, they also wear a lot of armor :-) Cheers, Jackie _ _ _ _ _ \\ / \0/ \ / \0/ \ \\ " " `\ ,sSSs,\, )\w/( ,sSS..)/{) <<..> sSSS_v)/ \ )<*> sSS[(\_]___\ <(_/_o_o_ 'sS[_`-+---+) \----+-------+-------'---`-----\-------------') ~~~~~~~ ~~jf ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~\~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ o \ o \\ o o \\ o o ` (\ o o >jf:-) o (/ o *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Rich Kulawiec wrote: >> >>On Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 02:22:33AM -0700, Philip Wylie wrote: >>> Pardon my ignorance but would you not class white water kayakingas an extreme >>> sport the same as sky-diving and would this not >>> leave sea kayaking in the category of "recreation" (although recognizing >>> some of the extreme circumstances which can occur on the ocean). >> >>No, whitewater kayaking is not an extreme sport; it's a recreational >>the sport in the same way that sea kayaking, mountain biking, skiing, >>and other outdoor sports are. Extreme whitewater kayaking, like >>extreme skiing, extreme mountain biking, etc., is an extreme sport. >> >>I hope that doesn't sound like nitpicking, for there's actually an >>important point in there: the overwhelming majority of whitewater >>paddlers do not run the class V stuff that you see on the cover >>of American Whitewater every month. Most whitewater paddlers are quite >>conservative (and I include myself in that) and stay well within >>their limits -- they consider it recreation, as do I, and getting >>hurt or killed while doing it isn't particularly appealing. ;-) [snip] same with whitewater canoeing. the majority of our club's whitewater rated instructors spend their time on class III or less. many spend their time training strictly on class II water, and it pays off for them, as they have regularly placed very well [or won!!] the ACA Whitewater Open Canoe Slalom Nationals!! there are numerous exceptions, but the bulk of the club paddles class II or less... mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/cpr [Colorado Paddlers' Resource] http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmskc [Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club] http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmcc [Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page] http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark [personal] -- Fortune: Now I lay me down to sleep I pray the double lock will keep; May no brick through the window break, And, no one rob me till I awake. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Dana Wrote >Boy , that white water report make Sea Kayaking seem like a safe Sport ( >notice I said seem)picky, picky > Lets see >#1 Amahac River in Mexico >he was shoved to the >> >right side of a drop. The boulder was undercut, and he and his rodeo boat >> >were shoved under the rock. His kayak pinned, he bailed out, His boat >> >and paddle never reappeared, > >Never seen that sea kayaking Dana After seeing the response that your original comment created I was more than a little amused. I even started typing up an email about some mildly safety-stupid sea kayaking situation, all fiction of course. You know, just to see how well the lure would work. Decided it was just shooting fish in a barrel, and it wouldn't have been real constructive either. ;-) Keep the dry side dry - oh heck, that wouldn't be any fun! Brian H. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Some people are a little to sensitive about their favorite hobby, I can't really blame them though. Its all in fun. Dana At 09:42 AM 2/19/98 -0800, Brian Heifner wrote: >Dana Wrote >>Boy , that white water report make Sea Kayaking seem like a safe Sport ( >>notice I said seem)picky, picky >> Lets see >>#1 Amahac River in Mexico >>he was shoved to the >>> >right side of a drop. The boulder was undercut, and he and his rodeo boat >>> >were shoved under the rock. His kayak pinned, he bailed out, His boat >>> >and paddle never reappeared, >> >>Never seen that sea kayaking > >Dana >After seeing the response that your original comment created I was more >than a little amused. I even started typing up an email about some mildly >safety-stupid sea kayaking situation, all fiction of course. You know, >just to see how well the lure would work. Decided it was just shooting >fish in a barrel, and it wouldn't have been real constructive either. ;-) > >Keep the dry side dry - oh heck, that wouldn't be any fun! > >Brian H. > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
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