R. Walker wrote: > I have inflated bags in both bow and stern; and it is boyount > enough to where it doesn't do what you are talking about. I > have swamped it in the pool, and its fine. I assume you were fully loaded when trying this in the pool? ('just checking.) Also, while pool sessions are very useful, it's far more useful to check performance in rough seas where a capsize might occur and a re-entry is likely to be needed. Preferably near a sandy beach with an on-shore wind close to your car - The sandy beach, on-shore winds & car help ensure that if things go wrong, you'll have a soft landing and a warm place to go. > To be honest though, it wouldn't really matter unless there > was some really bad luck, 99% of the time I am in water that > is three foot deep or less. So while I have practiced > recovering the boat over the deep end of the pool, its not > a skill that I likely will ever have much use for. So, I take it you're a river kayaker? That *is* a different thing. I was thinking about sea kayaking or other waters where you're a ways from shore and it's *much* deeper than 3 feet without adequate bow flotation. It's not that common that the flotation is actually needed - but there have been enough cases of people getting injured or killed that I thought it worth mentioning. > It is nice to know that I can do it, if I do venture offshore to > the rigs and capsize while trying to boat a big Red Snapper. If you *do* venture offshore, I hope you recognize that rescue in a pool is not at all the same thing as rescue in rough water. The paddle-float re-entry, T & X rescues, Eskimo roll, re-enter & roll, etc., are all pretty easy in a pool or in calm water - but they can be *very* tough in the kind of conditions that are likely to cause an unplanned capsize! Not preaching - just hoping that no-one gets hurt, OK? Craig Olson Bellingham, Washington *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Craig Olson wrote: >> >>R. Walker wrote: >>> I have inflated bags in both bow and stern; and it is boyount >>> enough to where it doesn't do what you are talking about. I >>> have swamped it in the pool, and its fine. >> >>I assume you were fully loaded when trying this in the pool? ('just checking.) >>Also, while pool sessions are very useful, it's far more useful to check performance >>in rough seas where a capsize might occur and a re-entry is likely to be needed. >>Preferably near a sandy beach with an on-shore wind close to your car - The sandy >>beach, on-shore winds & car help ensure that if things go wrong, you'll have a soft >>landing and a warm place to go. >> >>> To be honest though, it wouldn't really matter unless there >>> was some really bad luck, 99% of the time I am in water that >>> is three foot deep or less. So while I have practiced >>> recovering the boat over the deep end of the pool, its not >>> a skill that I likely will ever have much use for. >> >>So, I take it you're a river kayaker? That *is* a different thing. I was thinking >>about sea kayaking or other waters where you're a ways from shore and it's *much* >>deeper than 3 feet without adequate bow flotation. It's not that common that the >>flotation is actually needed - but there have been enough cases of people getting >>injured or killed that I thought it worth mentioning. [snip] >> >>Not preaching - just hoping that no-one gets hurt, OK? >> >>Craig Olson >>Bellingham, Washington >> >>*************************************************************************** >>PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >>Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >>Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >>*************************************************************************** reminds me of some trouble my daughter got into last year. we went on a river trip with the RMCC, and she took along a friend. she took my sea kayak [plastic aquaterra spectrum] which has no forward bulkhead. she went for a swim, and the boat took off. our fearless club prez went after it, and caught it about a 1/2 mile down river, but couldn't rescue it for another 1/4 mile, due to the full front half of the boat... the moral of that story was, if Jessica wants to paddle rivers, she needs the bow float bag ;-) i got trashed in a hole the next day, with the sea kayak, and swam the boat to shore, before anyone could even get close to me [just a hard class I run]. the boat i got for playing in harder water has bulkheads front and rear, and if/when i'm ready for the class III in it, i will put float bags into the compartments, for safety. DON'T ever get between your swamped boat, and rocks, always stay upstream of your boat [if at all possible]. the best representation i've seen for that was in a bill mason film, where the show the swamped boat as a vw beetle, pinning someone to a rock.... let's see, 8.4pounds/gallon, 200 gallons, ~1680pouns [~760Kg] --- now that hurts!! mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/cpr [Colorado Paddlers' Resource] http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmskc [Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club] http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmcc [Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page] http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark [personal] -- Fortune: Now I lay me down to sleep I pray the double lock will keep; May no brick through the window break, And, no one rob me till I awake. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Guys, I thought I would throw in a few cents even if it may sound like a sermon. One advantage of an open boat is that while it fills quicker than a decked boat it also drains easier. I have been on a beginners trip that had a near boat wrap when a capsized canoe in waist deep water in a modestly moving current was caught on a rock. The forces were easily high enought to deform the boat (wrap it) on the rock and when others got to it was already partly folded. It was a brand new 1,000$ boat and the owner was crying and cussing. The canoe was lacking full floatation. (If it had full floatation there would have been no problem because it would float high enough to keep it off the rocks.) With the open boat we were able to get bodies on it fast enough to roll it over down in the water (as opposed lifting it straight up which is near imposible). Once upside down we could lift it up and drain it empty on the same move which saved the boat. This summer a friend lost a boat on the Rio Grand headwaters. It drifted onto a rock in stomach deep water with a mild current. We were nowhere near fast enough this time. He was running white water in a boat with full floatation installed inadequetely. On a moderate drop his front bag came out, the boat filled and he lost the boat. When we caught up to it down in calm class I water it was a pancaked against the rock. We tried for a long time with several pullers, a rescue rope and a z-drag but that boat was not moving. What was truely surprizing was how dificult it was to wade out to that boat. Even with the sandy bottem and modest current it was pretty hairy. I frequently paddle decked boats--C-1's. I loose them on occasion (class IV and V whitewater) and have to recover them to the shore. I am amazed at how heavy they are even with everything but the cockpit filled with air. (unlike a kayak a C-1 uses full size airbags in the bow which come up to the knees (C-boaters kneel). I turn them upside down and try to dump em but being decked this is very ineffective in anything but a shallow and still eddy. Unlike an open boat doing a wet entrance is very tricky. The darn thing is so rolly that unless two guys are holding you it is near impossible. I am amazed that I can pull in a 17', fully loaded canoe easier than I can my little boat. The decked canoes are always fully floated and can be drained reasonably in any thing but deep water. I also kayak. A pool session game we have is to deliberately swamp the bow and try to keep the boat upright. It is very exhausting and is a balance drill that rivals surfing a huge hole. I can't imagin anyone wanting to go through this on river. It is hard enough to manage in a pool. In hard water sometimes accidents happen and the boater is drifting unconscious or semi conscious and upside down until his friends can pull him up and revive him. In a floated boat the boat and the PFD often keep the head out sideways with the mouth out of the water. In that setting it is critical that the boat be fully floated so that it doesn't sink with the body or get hung on undercut rocks. There is also my formentioned experience last summer with Mark's daughter's boat. We were very lucky not to loose it on very easy water. I realize that you are sea kayaker and live in a diferent reality than us river boaters do. The wildcard in your hobby is one that you brought up yourself--the wind. The wind and the waves it causes is most likely what will give you the need to practice the we reenty and recover. Your situation in open water will not be like the pool where you feel secure with your set-up and your ability to manage your boat. Open water waves and swells in my experience are at least as bad as the type you find on rivers and the challenges of reentering or bringing a boat into land are at least as great on windy day (blowing out of course) as they are in almost any river. A look at the accident literiture for sea-kayaks should bear this out. The best case might be the story my friend shared with me last summer where a outward bound trip went out on a calm sunny day off the N. Sea.. The wind blew out hard dumped several boats and a tragedy occured that needed have been. I am not certain of how good a boater you are or how easy of water you boat. Even if you only boat in a swimming pool or the equivalent my best advice is to float everything with the maximum number of airbags. It is a habit, like wearing seat-belts or a PFD. There will come a day when you gradually venture to deeper, faster water and this habit will pay off with a saved boat and maybe more. Good Luck ~~Dennis Adams *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
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