I could not believe my eyes! 15 dead during 1997 in whitewater kayaking (Paddler Magazine Online, http://www.aca-paddler.org./paddler/index.html). That just tells me that we are not talking about safety in vain... Ari Saarto "Think about your hips - a good sea kayaker is also a worthy partner in samba..." Kannaksenkatu 22 / P.O. 92 15141 Lahti - Finland - Europe GSM +358 - 50 - 526 5892 fax. +358 - 3 - 828 2815 e-mail: asaarto_at_lpt.fi *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Ari Saarto wrote: > I could not believe my eyes! > 15 dead during 1997 in whitewater > kayaking (Paddler Magazine Online, > http://www.aca-paddler.org./paddler/index.html). > > That just tells me that we are not talking about safety in vain... > Ari Saarto Ari, Thanks for the link to paddler's article, which is very interesting from a whitewater boaters perspective. I knew two of the paddlers mentioned, and these are not happy thoughts, but they are important nonetheless. With regards to the discussions of safety on this list however, I don't see much usefulness so far. The important aspect of how to recognize, and then avoid or safely deal with danger while kayaking has not been discussed. Probably the only result is a negative one, because many people are probably now frightened to learn whitewater at all. Those who died were paddling Class V, where death is always a decent possibility in the event of a mistake or mishap. Here is quote from Charlie Walbridge that I copied directly from the Paddler article: "The only cause of these deaths," he adds, "is the demanding nature of Class V, which is brutally intolerant of errors in water reading, boat handling and judgment. We're getting to the point where kayakers are pushing the envelope the same way mountaineers have been doing since the 1930s. Just as in climbing, skilled, competent people are cutting their margins too fine. The really high-end stuff can't be run forever. Eventually statistics catch up with you." This is not to say that death is not a possibility on easier whitewater, because this also happens, just like sea kayakers die occasionaly on flat water. These deaths on easier water are quite avoidable however with good judgement and safety. I propose we start new thread, which I'll post next. Best Regards, Kevin /--------------------------------------------\ /---------------------------\ |Something there is that doesn't love a wall | Kevin Whilden | |That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it | kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu | |And spills the upper boulders in the sun | Dept. of Geologic Science | |And makes gaps that even two can pass abreast| University of Washington | | -- Robert Frost |(206)543-1975(w) 632-5140(h)| \--------------------------------------------/ \---------------------------/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Kevin, thank you for mailing! I think that a lot of experience, practicing and good guides/teachers do make things safer, I believe you are sharing that opinion. Actually, I think that my teacher was one of those, who are skilled but unable to share their knowledge. Maybe writing and talks about safety do help to peopleTAKE things more seriously. I sincerelly do mean both whitewater and sea kayaking, even if I am not very well aware about regulations in the States... The reason I wrote about that article: Sea kayaking has been getting quite common here, around the capital. That means that from tens to hundreds of people are going to the sea full of traffic just after courses, sometimes without good guidance. The thought of it makes me very nervous, you know. "... The important aspect of how to recognize, and then avoid or safely deal with danger while kayaking has not been discussed..." Yes. That is surely true. Some of these things do really stay quite academic, unless one doesn´t have possibilities to practice a lot. How could we raise such a useful discussion? Best regards, Ari Saarto "Think about your hips - a good sea kayaker is also a worthy partner in samba..." Kannaksenkatu 22 / P.O. 92 15141 Lahti - Finland - Europe GSM +358 - 50 - 526 5892 fax. +358 - 3 - 828 2815 e-mail: asaarto_at_lpt.fi *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
> From: "K. Whilden" <kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu> > With regards to the discussions of safety on this list however, I don't > see much usefulness so far. The important aspect of how to recognize, and > then avoid or safely deal with danger while kayaking has not been > discussed. Probably the only result is a negative one, because many people > are probably now frightened to learn whitewater at all. This was discussed in great length on the "other" list. Most of those folks involved in that lengthy debate are here now. If the discussion on PaddleWise so far has not carried you as far as you wish, then by all means, feel free to contribute. There has been talk in the waivers section about paddlers being responsible, training being important under the ballast subject, and several postings on proficiency training. If something is missing, rather than complain it is not adequate, submit what you believe is missing. I think you underestimate the subscribers here when you suggest that the result of the ww "near miss" report has only succeeded in frightening people into not learning whitewater at all. Many of the sea kayakers here also paddle ww. Jackie _ _ _ _ _ \\ / \0/ \ / \0/ \ \\ " " `\ ,sSSs,\, )\w/( ,sSS..)/{) <<..> sSSS_v)/ \ )<*> sSS[(\_]___\ <(_/_o_o_ 'sS[_`-+---+) \----+-------+-------'---`-----\-------------') ~~~~~~~ ~~jf ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~\~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ o \ o \\ o o \\ o o ` (\ o o >jf:-) o (/ o *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
> This was discussed in great length on the "other" list. Most of those > folks involved in that lengthy debate are here now. If the discussion > on PaddleWise so far has not carried you as far as you wish, then by > all means, feel free to contribute. There has been talk in the waivers > section about paddlers being responsible, training being important under > the ballast subject, and several postings on proficiency training. If > something is missing, rather than complain it is not adequate, submit > what you believe is missing. I think you underestimate the subscribers > here when you suggest that the result of the ww "near miss" report has > only succeeded in frightening people into not learning whitewater at all. > Many of the sea kayakers here also paddle ww. > > Jackie Jackie, New people join this list all the time (I hope). I think it is good to repeat comments and threads occasionally. And on this occasion, my personal opinion was that the whitewater death thread had the danger of getting too misleading for *some*, but certainly not *all* of the people on this list. Do I have to cover my ass with retractions and qualifications every time I post a message that I think is helpful? Do all of the old hands on this list get annoyed when a topic is repeated from 6 months or a year ago? /--------------------------------------------\ /---------------------------\ |Something there is that doesn't love a wall | Kevin Whilden | |That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it | kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu | |And spills the upper boulders in the sun | Dept. of Geologic Science | |And makes gaps that even two can pass abreast| University of Washington | | -- Robert Frost |(206)543-1975(w) 632-5140(h)| \--------------------------------------------/ \---------------------------/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
> From: "K. Whilden" <kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu> > Jackie, > > New people join this list all the time (I hope). I think it is good to > repeat comments and threads occasionally. And on this occasion, my > personal opinion was that the whitewater death thread had the danger of > getting too misleading for *some*, but certainly not *all* of the people > on this list. Do I have to cover my ass with retractions and > qualifications every time I post a message that I think is helpful? Do all > of the old hands on this list get annoyed when a topic is repeated from > 6 months or a year ago? No, but they might get annoyed when someone complains that something they want to see isn't happening. My point was that less than 4 weeks ago many of us were involved in such a discussion. It will pop up again but requires someone getting the ball rolling. Rather than complain that it isn't happening on your schedule or how you want to see it, I suggest you get the ball rolling. That's how most of the folks here have been getting subjects off the ground, They make a contribution rather than complain about something not happening to their liking. They are taking the bull by the horn. And there have been some *really* nice contributions from the folks here on many different subjects. We just got started barely over three weeks ago and it has been amazing! :-) You just submitted a request for subscribers to send in their anecdotal stories. This is a good start. It would even be better if you start your subject with your own anecdotal story. It helps to generate confidence in other contributers as to the purpose. Compiling it for the web archive page is a great idea! :-) my .02 Jackie _ _ _ _ _ \\ / \0/ \ / \0/ \ \\ " " `\ ,sSSs,\, )\w/( ,sSS..)/{) <<..> sSSS_v)/ \ )<*> sSS[(\_]___\ <(_/_o_o_ 'sS[_`-+---+) \----+-------+-------'---`-----\-------------') ~~~~~~~ ~~jf ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~\~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ o \ o \\ o o \\ o o ` (\ o o >jf:-) o (/ o *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
I for one do not mind repeated threads, etc. I often cannot keep the messages on my computer for a long time. I do think the tone of the last two messages has been hardened a little by these uncaring electrons. I think it might help to remember when replying that we cannot see the facial expression or hear the voice. Or am I falling into the same trap? Steve -----Original Message----- From: K. Whilden [SMTP:kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 19, 1998 4:02 PM To: Jackie Fenton Cc: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] 15 dead? > This was discussed in great length on the "other" list. Most of those > folks involved in that lengthy debate are here now. If the discussion > on PaddleWise so far has not carried you as far as you wish, then by > all means, feel free to contribute. There has been talk in the waivers > section about paddlers being responsible, training being important under > the ballast subject, and several postings on proficiency training. If > something is missing, rather than complain it is not adequate, submit > what you believe is missing. I think you underestimate the subscribers > here when you suggest that the result of the ww "near miss" report has > only succeeded in frightening people into not learning whitewater at all. > Many of the sea kayakers here also paddle ww. > > Jackie Jackie, New people join this list all the time (I hope). I think it is good to repeat comments and threads occasionally. And on this occasion, my personal opinion was that the whitewater death thread had the danger of getting too misleading for *some*, but certainly not *all* of the people on this list. Do I have to cover my ass with retractions and qualifications every time I post a message that I think is helpful? Do all of the old hands on this list get annoyed when a topic is repeated from 6 months or a year ago? /--------------------------------------------\ /---------------------------\ |Something there is that doesn't love a wall | Kevin Whilden | |That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it | kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu | |And spills the upper boulders in the sun | Dept. of Geologic Science | |And makes gaps that even two can pass abreast| University of Washington | | -- Robert Frost |(206)543-1975(w) 632-5140(h)| \--------------------------------------------/ \---------------------------/ ************************************************************************ *** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ************************************************************************ *** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Feb 19, 1998 at 08:57:02PM +0000, Ari Saarto wrote: > I could not believe my eyes! > 15 dead during 1997 in whitewater kayaking I'm not sure why you're surprised at this; given the immense popularity of the sport, or maybe more accurately, the immense *growth rate* of the sport, I don't think this is entirely unexpected. I just hope we all learn enough from it to prevent more of the same in the future. (It's also possible that 1997 was a bit of statistical anomaly and that following years will be more "normal" -- whatever that is.) This is not to say that these deaths aren't tragic; I miss Richie Weiss very much, and wish he was still around because I thought trying to be more like him made me a better person...but now all I can do is one more lap, one more loop, one more lift to remember him by and hope that I learned enough from him while he was with us. ---Rsk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
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