I have new narrow blade graphite Eddyline Windswift and a new wood Superior Greenland paddle. Both 7'6". I studied VanDoren's Greenland style video and use that technique with both paddles. While the wood paddle is better for sculling moves, the lighter graphite is more pleasant for long distances. Has anyone else experience with both modern and old-fashioned Greenland style paddles? Please don't consider esthetics in your comparison, only paddling feel and utility. Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Gerry wrote; >I have new narrow blade graphite Eddyline Windswift and a new wood Superior Greenland >paddle. Both 7'6". I studied VanDoren's Greenland style video and use that technique >with both paddles. While the wood paddle is better for sculling moves, the lighter graphite >is more pleasant for long distances. >Has anyone else experience with both modern and old-fashioned Greenland style >paddles? Please don't consider aesthetics in your comparison, only paddling feel and >utility. Most modern blades lack the foil shape (thickness) of a wood paddle. The result is less lift when sculling and possibly some loss of control due to the sharper edges. Lightweight is a virtue in paddles and the very thing that might make the modern paddle less suitable for rolling makes it better for straight ahead paddling. I.e. the flatter blade face increases the drag coefficient. This means you need less velocity to generate the same drag and this can reduce the velocity to that which is more in tune with your natural cadence. Another factor may be the difference in rigidity. Some people prefer a flexible paddle and this does seem to alleviate some shoulder problems although I have yet to see any controlled studies to show why or if this is actually true. Of course, this assumes that all other factors like blade area etc.. are equal. If they aren't, then the difference may not be in the construction or even shape and may be in the area or distribution of area. It is a mistake to isolate one variable as being the determinant variable without considering other variables that may not be constant. The feel of paddle is so subjective that you should be cautious in accepting any paddler's verdict other than your own. While Jerry asked that aesthetics be left out of this I am not sure they can. My favourite story (that bears repeating) concerns this very topic. Some years ago I took two canoes to a canoe symposium. I told a group of expert paddlers that they were slightly different versions of the same boat and that I was curious which they thought was best. Both boats were made in the same mold and of the same construction. The difference was that one was red with wood trim and the other was white with aluminium trim. It was unanimous that the red boat was faster and more responsive. I chuckle every time I recall it. Similar studies have been done by advertising firms to show that the same product will have variable reception depending upon presentation. A classic is the green steak test where normal and green steaks are served to diners. The green steaks always taste terrible although both will taste good when the diner is blindfolded. . Oddly enough people are reluctant to admit that they like a paddle just because it looks good and will manufacture all manner of pseudo technical reasons why it is wonderful. It seems to me that paddling an aesthetically centred activity, enough to like the look of a thing and unnecessary that it be "better" than other objects of the same type. Of course, it is nice if it really is "better" and that is what boat builders and paddle makers try to do - make a better mouse trap that is more appealing to the mouse. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
By "modern" and "old-fashioned" are you referring to materials or shape or what? If you clarify your question it will help me to know just what you are asking. thanks Barbara Kossy At 03:35 PM 3/25/98 -0800, Gerald Foodman wrote: >I have new narrow blade graphite Eddyline Windswift and a new wood Superior Greenland paddle. Both 7'6". I studied VanDoren's Greenland style video and use that technique with both paddles. While the wood paddle is better for sculling moves, the lighter graphite is more pleasant for long distances. > >Has anyone else experience with both modern and old-fashioned Greenland style paddles? Please don't consider esthetics in your comparison, only paddling feel and utility. > >Jerry ><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> ><HTML> ><HEAD> > ><META content=text/html;charset=iso-8859-1 http-equiv=Content-Type> ><META content='"MSHTML 4.71.2016.0"' name=GENERATOR> ></HEAD> ><BODY bgColor=#ffffff> ><DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>I have new narrow blade graphite Eddyline >Windswift and a new wood Superior Greenland paddle. Both 7'6". >I studied VanDoren's Greenland style video and use that technique with both >paddles. While the wood paddle is better for sculling moves, the lighter >graphite is more pleasant for long distances.</FONT></DIV> ><DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV> ><DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>Has anyone else experience with both modern and >old-fashioned Greenland style paddles? Please don't consider esthetics in >your comparison, only paddling feel and utility.</FONT></DIV> ><DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV> ><DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>Jerry </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> > * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * --*--*-- Barbara Kossy Communications vox: 510-234-3479 fax: 510-234-6615 * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- *--* -- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
It seems you answered your own question. Do you need a versatile tool or do you need a propeller? I've not used the hybrid composite narrow blade paddles but swear by the more traditional. I started with a Werner San Juan that allowed me to impose too much stress to my body. I then went to a Betsie Bay "modern interpetation" and have been very pleased. It seems to be a good compromise of the euro/traditional paddle. I have "roughed out" a more traditional paddle by John Heath's translated guidelines and intially believe it to be more ergonomic. Fred Gerald Foodman wrote: > I have new narrow blade graphite Eddyline Windswift and a new wood > Superior Greenland paddle. Both 7'6". I studied VanDoren's Greenland > style video and use that technique with both paddles. While the wood > paddle is better for sculling moves, the lighter graphite is more > pleasant for long distances. Has anyone else experience with both > modern and old-fashioned Greenland style paddles? Please don't > consider esthetics in your comparison, only paddling feel and > utility. Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>By "modern" and "old-fashioned" are you referring to materials or shape or >what? If you clarify your question it will help me to know just what you >are asking. >thanks >Barbara Kossy > By "modern Greenland" I mean any light, usually graphite narrow bladed paddle. Typical are the Werner Little Dipper and Arctic Wind, and the Eddyline Windswift. I have owned and used all of these and find any of them dramatically less tiring over long distance at moderate speed (3.5 to 4.5 knots) than a large bladed paddle such as the Werner San Juan. This with the very important proviso that I use a low Greenland stroke. By "old fashioned" I mean any traditional narrow blade, wood, Greenland style paddle such as those available from Superior Kayaks or Betsie Bay. I also have the Superior wood paddle. My Eddyline Windswift and Superior paddle are identical in length (7'6"), and are very similar in power. I try to use the identical stroke with both. Overall I prefer the Windswift because it is so light. I haven't missed a roll with the Windswift in many, many tries. I have only had 1 rolling session with the Superior and missed the first try. Sculling braces are more forgiving with the Superior but still fine with the Windswift. I also have a graphite Little Dipper at 8' and my wife has one at 7'6". The 7'6" Little Dipper has less power than either the Windswift or Superior paddle at the same length. I still like the 8' Little Dipper and use it when I want to paddle at a slower cadence. I believe that most traditional wood paddles are sold at 7', which I find too short. The resulting cadence is not at all pleasant for me. All these are unfeathered. I believe that feathering a narrow blade paddle prevents proper use of the low stroke. Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> > By "modern Greenland" I mean any light, usually graphite narrow bladed > paddle. Typical are the Werner Little Dipper and Arctic Wind, and the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ??!!!!! > Eddyline Windswift. I have owned and used all of these and find any of them > dramatically less tiring over long distance at moderate speed (3.5 to 4.5 > knots) than a large bladed paddle such as the Werner San Juan. This with > the very important proviso that I use a low Greenland stroke. The Artic Wind can only be compared to the extremely long paddles of East Greenland, not to the West Greenland variety which are the ones people refer to by "Greenland Paddle". IMHO the Artic Wind, and most of the commercial paddles that are sold as "Greenland" paddles are aberrations of the original idea. They lack the profile that provides lift when swept across the water, the shafts are too long -designed for the general public who are not expected to change their paddling style-, and they are not designed to be grabbed at the blades in order to play Greenland "trick" rolls. As George Gronseth said one in wavelength, the cheapest Greenland paddle made at home is better and closer to the real thing than any commercial version. Only those who make their own paddles following the descriptions of John Heath and others know the difference. The most outrageous example of misconception for the sake of marketing hype comes from Derek Hutchinson and his "Toksook" paddle. He claims "it is symmetrical, which helps in sculling", but the edges are very thin and the blade stalls at very low angles; it does not even have the appropiate foil shape to create lift. He uses the leaf shape in the blade just because "the Aleut did it that way"; the secret of that shape is that it reduces the cavitation of the blade as it enters the water, yet the modern asymmetrical paddle blades maximize that cavitation for the sake of wrist comfort as the general public wants it. Do you folks want to see a good paddle? Look at the painting on Dyson's book "Baidarka", page 55. I am surprised that someone like Mr. Hutchinson could get so close and yet not get the clue. A good paddle blade as an eliptic shape, and has a symmetrical foil profile. If I ever got bored of my Greeland paddles (highly unlikely) and made a modern paddle I would pickup a nice strong carbon shaft, and glue styrofoam blades to it as described above (eliptical, foil profile, symmetrical), and fiberglass the foam. That would make the lightest paddle of all, it would scull like not other, work like a wing paddle whenever the paddler chooses to use a positive angle, and would have extremely low cavitation when entering the water. But such a paddle would be difficult to market due to the fierce competition of the _new_ release of sea kayaking paddles from other manufacturers. As everything _new_ is always better, the new paddles do no longer have a spoon shape, but the _new_ revolutionary fork shape. Such a revolutionary design is going to make millions of $$ in revenue from the general public, who can not wait to get the latest _new_ stuff at REI. :-)) - Julio p.s. grrrrr!! :-} *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Julio wrote; (SNIP) >The most outrageous example of misconception for the sake of marketing >hype comes from Derek Hutchinson and his "Toksook" paddle. He claims >"it is symmetrical, which helps in sculling", but the edges are very >thin and the blade stalls at very low angles; it does not even have >the appropiate foil shape to create lift. He uses the leaf shape in >the blade just because "the Aleut did it that way"; the secret of >that shape is that it reduces the cavitation of the blade as it enters >the water, yet the modern asymmetrical paddle blades maximize that >cavitation for the sake of wrist comfort as the general public wants it. Little old nit picking just to keep evryone honest. What Julio is talking about is not cavitation but ventilation. Cavitation is the outgassing of vapour under low pressures and full immersion. Paddlers just can't develop the velocity to cause cavitation. Ventilation is the migration of air from the surface down the low pressure side of the paddle. Anyone can do that. By way of example - rudders ventilate and propellors cavitate. I find the topic fascinating but then..... :-) Also, it is not the intention of the modern blade design to increase ventilation as that decreases both drag and lift. For a fairly good discussion of this see "Canoeing, an Olympic Sport" by Andy Toro. The primary objective of modern blades is to increase the drag coeffcient and permit a more powerful vertical stroke with lower rotational forces on the boat. >I am surprised that someone like Mr. Hutchinson could get so close >and yet not get the clue. Derek is a delightful fellow but may have failed physics. His chapters on boat design are filled with errors. On the other hand, he designs some nice boats proving that one can still do the right thing even if it is for the wrong reason just as we clever bugger techy types can do the wrong thing for the right reasons. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
There are lots of interesting possibilities with Greenland paddles. I have three very different Greenland paddles. Not all of us have the ability, (I have repetative stress problems with carving and sanding), time, or inclination to build things. But Greenland paddles are out there. One is a fiberglass, injected foam and aluminun interpretation by Italian kayak designer Raymond Varraud. The kevlar coated metal tube loom is a little wide for my hands, but it's fun to scull and roll with and comes in bright non-indigenous colors like orange and yellow and white. If you want to know more about the paddle, contact Raymond at varraud_at_usa.net. Another was carved from a single plank of Western Cedar and treated with teak oil. The shape is a little different. The blades end with a straight edge, like a plank, rather than rounded. Also, he's done some neat stuff with the loom. Shaping it for a hand grip and varying the thickness along the loom, so you always know where your hands are. Rob Savage, the designer, is in Chicago and sells the paddles for $140. You can contact him at 312-738-2370. The third Ken Katz made with some assitance from me. It's laminated cherry and sitka spruce, and has a traditional sort of shape. I treated it with Tung oil and wax. I plan to try out the 2 wood paddles this weekend, weather permitting. It will be fun to compare these three very different Greenland-style paddles, all made by friends. Another plus of the Greenland paddle, not mentioned earlier, is that they are stable in strong gusts of wind. They don't jump up into a gust the way a "sport" paddle does. Barbara Kossy Richmond, California bkossy_at_igc.apc.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Barbara Kossy [SMTP:bkossy_at_igc.apc.org] > Sent: Friday, March 27, 1998 6:32 AM > To: barbara.kossy_at_pbdir.com > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Modern Greenland Paddle > > >Return-Path: <owner-paddlewise_at_ns1.intelenet.net> > >From: Julio MacWilliams <juliom_at_cisco.com> > >Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Modern Greenland Paddle > >To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > >Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 01:04:21 -0800 (PST) > >Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > >X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List > >X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > > > >> > >> By "modern Greenland" I mean any light, usually graphite narrow > bladed > >> paddle. Typical are the Werner Little Dipper and Arctic Wind, and > the > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > ??!!!!! > >> Eddyline Windswift. I have owned and used all of these and find > any of them > >> dramatically less tiring over long distance at moderate speed (3.5 > to 4.5 > >> knots) than a large bladed paddle such as the Werner San Juan. > This with > >> the very important proviso that I use a low Greenland stroke. > > > >The Artic Wind can only be compared to the extremely long paddles of > >East Greenland, not to the West Greenland variety which are the ones > >people refer to by "Greenland Paddle". > > > >IMHO the Artic Wind, and most of the commercial paddles that are sold > >as "Greenland" paddles are aberrations of the original idea. They > lack > >the profile that provides lift when swept across the water, the > shafts > >are too long -designed for the general public who are not expected to > >change their paddling style-, and they are not designed to be grabbed > >at the blades in order to play Greenland "trick" rolls. > > > >As George Gronseth said one in wavelength, the cheapest Greenland > paddle > >made at home is better and closer to the real thing than any > commercial > >version. Only those who make their own paddles following the > descriptions > >of John Heath and others know the difference. > > > >The most outrageous example of misconception for the sake of > marketing > >hype comes from Derek Hutchinson and his "Toksook" paddle. He claims > >"it is symmetrical, which helps in sculling", but the edges are very > >thin and the blade stalls at very low angles; it does not even have > >the appropiate foil shape to create lift. He uses the leaf shape in > >the blade just because "the Aleut did it that way"; the secret of > >that shape is that it reduces the cavitation of the blade as it > enters > >the water, yet the modern asymmetrical paddle blades maximize that > >cavitation for the sake of wrist comfort as the general public wants > it. > > > >Do you folks want to see a good paddle? Look at the painting on > >Dyson's book "Baidarka", page 55. > > > >I am surprised that someone like Mr. Hutchinson could get so close > >and yet not get the clue. A good paddle blade as an eliptic shape, > >and has a symmetrical foil profile. If I ever got bored of my > >Greeland paddles (highly unlikely) and made a modern paddle I would > >pickup a nice strong carbon shaft, and glue styrofoam blades to > >it as described above (eliptical, foil profile, symmetrical), and > >fiberglass the foam. That would make the lightest paddle of all, > >it would scull like not other, work like a wing paddle whenever > >the paddler chooses to use a positive angle, and would have extremely > >low cavitation when entering the water. > > > >But such a paddle would be difficult to market due to the fierce > >competition of the _new_ release of sea kayaking paddles from > >other manufacturers. As everything _new_ is always better, the > >new paddles do no longer have a spoon shape, but the _new_ > revolutionary > >fork shape. Such a revolutionary design is going to make millions > >of $$ in revenue from the general public, who can not wait to get > >the latest _new_ stuff at REI. :-)) > > > >- Julio > > > >p.s. grrrrr!! :-} > > > >********************************************************************* > ****** > >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > >********************************************************************* > ****** > > > > > * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * --*--*-- > Barbara Kossy Communications > vox: 510-234-3479 fax: 510-234-6615 > * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- *--* -- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> >IMHO the Artic Wind, and most of the commercial paddles that are sold >as "Greenland" paddles are aberrations of the original idea. They lack >the profile that provides lift when swept across the water, the shafts >are too long -designed for the general public who are not expected to >change their paddling style-, and they are not designed to be grabbed >at the blades in order to play Greenland "trick" rolls. > >As George Gronseth said one in wavelength, the cheapest Greenland paddle >made at home is better and closer to the real thing than any commercial >version. Only those who make their own paddles following the descriptions >of John Heath and others know the difference. > I don't believe one should use the pejorative term aberration to describe these commercial paddles. Yes, they are different and have other characteristics. But the advantages of modern light weight materials should not be dismissed. Unless you use aberration as an esthetic term. For forward locomotion the modern paddle is at least the equal of the traditional. Perhaps you can't do all the sculling moves as easily. But I have not missed a roll in a long time with my Windswift. But then again I cannot do all the traditional roll variations. Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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