>> I don't know that anyone has done much with small blades and a more vertical stroke. Always it seems to be small blades on long shafts (Greenland) or large blades on short shafts (racing and white water) . This is not really a fair comparison. From a purely mechanical standpoint, the stroke closer to the boat wastes less energy (less wasted on turning moment). From a purely biomechanical standpoint the more vertical stroke promotes more body rotation and use of torso muscles while making best use of the arms for maximum push and pull. It would seem to me that one might get best results using a small blade that did not stress muscles an a short paddle with a more upright stroke for greatest efficiency. The Greenland style of stroke may be a product of its length and poor physics. It may work because of the blade size and nothing else. This fits with what Jerry is saying - adjust the stroke to suit the paddle. The big question is, does the stroke control paddle choice or does the paddle choice control stroke? Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ >> ************************************************************************** * I don't think of the Greenland paddle as a long paddle. Mine, which is made to my dimensions using traditional methods, is about 218 cm long. The blades are narrow but long (9.5 cm by 89 cm). And if you look at old films of Greenlanders, such as Knud Rasmussen's "Palos Brudefaerd," you do see torso rotation. You also see both a low forward stroke and a high forward stroke in that film. The higher, more vertical, stroke was used when more power was needed. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
One of my paddles is short with small blades. When I first started using it a couple of years ago, I felt insecure when bracing and rolling, for I was used to much larger blades. Although I no longer feel uneasy over it, I still find that I have to pay attention to my rolling technique, whereas with a big blade I don't have to think. I have always been partial to short shafts (e.g. sprint kayak sized rather than sea kayak sized) and the ensuing vertical stroke/body rotation. My preference is to zip about, take a break, zip about, take a break, and so on, so the sprint stroke meets my needs. Also, since I don't do too much with my arms, fatigue throughout the day is not that big a problem. I find that long shafts are a bit limiting for my personal preferences, for I am unable to rev fast enough. Unfortunately, most short shaft blades on the market are just too big for me to comfortably flail away for an entire day if I am in a big boat. When I am on day or weekend trips in a sprint boat there is no problem, but in my large sea kayak loaded to the gills with gear, I find stroking hard all day long to be a bit much. Therefore, I had a short shaft paddle made up with small blades. Now I can maintain my stroke rate and get full rotation without feeling like I am hanging from a rafter by the end of a day. Although I cannot accelerate as well as with a large blade paddle, I can still accelerate far more quickly than I can with a long shaft. I am not suggesting that this is the way to go, but if you are into a full-body stroke, starting from your toes and working up, you might give this sort of paddle a try. Richard Culpeper www.geocities.com/~culpeper Chuck Holst wrote: > >> > I don't know that anyone has done much with small blades and a more > vertical stroke. Always it seems to be small blades on long shafts > (Greenland) or large blades on short shafts (racing and white water) > . This > is not really a fair comparison. From a purely mechanical standpoint, > the > stroke closer to the boat wastes less energy (less wasted on turning > moment). From a purely biomechanical standpoint the more vertical > stroke > promotes more body rotation and use of torso muscles while making > best use > of the arms for maximum push and pull. > > It would seem to me that one might get best results using a small > blade > that did not stress muscles an a short paddle with a more upright > stroke > for greatest efficiency. The Greenland style of stroke may be a > product of > its length and poor physics. It may work because of the blade size and > > nothing else. This fits with what Jerry is saying - adjust the stroke > to > suit the paddle. The big question is, does the stroke control paddle > choice > or does the paddle choice control stroke? > > Cheers, > John Winters > Redwing Designs > Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft > http://home.ican.net/~735769/ > >> > > ** > *********************************************************************** > * > > I don't think of the Greenland paddle as a long paddle. Mine, which > is made to my dimensions using traditional methods, is about 218 cm > long. The blades are narrow but long (9.5 cm by 89 cm). And if you > look at old films of Greenlanders, such as K > nud Rasmussen's "Palos Brudefaerd," you do see torso rotation. You > also see both a low forward stroke and a high forward stroke in that > film. The higher, more vertical, stroke was used when more power was > needed. > > Chuck Holst > *********** > *************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > > ************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>One of my paddles is short with small blades. When I first started >using it a couple of years ago, I felt insecure when bracing and >rolling, for I was used to much larger blades. Although I no longer >feel uneasy over it, I still find that I have to pay attention to my >rolling technique, whereas with a big blade I don't have to think. > My wife and I have the following narrow blade paddles: 8'1" Little Dipper, 7'6" Little Dipper, 7'6" Eddyline Windswift, 7'6" wood Greenland by Superior. I used to use a 7'3" Descente (large blade). Rolling is easier for me with any of the narrow blade paddles. The set up is much quicker. I never miss an on side roll and a well executed roll for me is when there is hardly any force on the paddle and I come up effortlessly. The narrow blade is no disadvantage at all. Comparing the 8'1" and 7'6" Little Dippers, I much prefer the longer, especially in rough water. I like to relax and stroke slowly in those conditions and the extra leverage is noticeable and allows me to paddle without having to brace often. With the shorter paddle I brace more often, which is disruptive to forward motion. With all narrow paddles I often use a sculling high brace, which is easier than with a wide paddle. Although a slap brace is more powerful with the wide paddle, the narrow blade provides more than adequate power. Broached on a shorebreak wave I again prefer the narrow blade. It is more than adequate for support, yet is easier on the body. >I have always been partial to short shafts (e.g. sprint kayak sized >rather than sea kayak sized) and the ensuing vertical stroke/body >rotation. My preference is to zip about, take a break, zip about, take >a break, and so on, so the sprint stroke meets my needs. Also, since I >don't do too much with my arms, fatigue throughout the day is not that >big a problem. I find that long shafts are a bit limiting for my >personal preferences, for I am unable to rev fast enough. > Cadence is so much a personal preference. >Unfortunately, most short shaft blades on the market are just too big >for me to comfortably flail away for an entire day if I am in a big >boat. When I am on day or weekend trips in a sprint boat there is no >problem, but in my large sea kayak loaded to the gills with gear, I find >stroking hard all day long to be a bit much. Therefore, I had a short >shaft paddle made up with small blades. Now I can maintain my stroke >rate and get full rotation without feeling like I am hanging from a >rafter by the end of a day. Although I cannot accelerate as well as >with a large blade paddle, I can still accelerate far more quickly than >I can with a long shaft. > I wonder about this idea of acceleration. How would you actually measure it? I believe I get the same acceleration out of the narrow blade by using a short burst of cadence, but I am not sure. I don't trust my sense of it as being accurate. Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Chuck wrote; > >I don't think of the Greenland paddle as a long paddle. Mine, which is made to >my dimensions using traditional methods, is about 218 cm long. The blades >are narrow but long (9.5 cm by 89 cm). And if you look at old films of >Greenlanders, such as Knud Rasmussen's "Palos Brudefaerd," you do see >torso rotation. You also see both a low forward stroke and a high forward >stroke in that film. The higher, more vertical, stroke was used when more >power was needed. Once again the Inuit beat us to the punch. Just out of curiosity, Chuck, do you vary your stroke with your paddle. Mine is a low aspect ratio paddle that is 210 cm and also vary between high and low strokes depending on how enthusiastic I am. Richard Culpeper seems to be doing the same thing (using a small bladed short paddle) and his skills are solid so maybe there is something too it. A guy named Darcus some years back did some government funded ergonomic research and after spending big bucks discovered that, free from outside influences, the body would naturally take up its most efficient posture and motion. However, when a tool was involved that forced an alteration to that posture or motion it took a learning process to develop the most efficient action. Perhaps this is a worthwhile experiment for someone. Give a beginner who ha never seen anyone paddle before new paddles of different lengths and then see what their strokes look like. Maybe, if we let our bodies do their own thing, w could arrive at the best (or close to best) stroke without instruction. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: --snip-- > Richard Culpeper seems to be doing the same thing (using a small > bladed > short paddle) --snip-- > <Darcus' study> the body would naturally take up its most efficient > posture and > motion. However, when a tool was involved that forced an alteration to > that > posture or motion it took a learning process to develop the most > efficient > action. Yes, my stroke varies according to the type of paddle which I use. In general, I like to stroke as close to the boat as possible, catch near perpendicular as far forward as possible without folding over at the waist, not raise the bottom of my upper hand (my thumb) above by eyes, take out at my hips, and rotate as much as possible. To accomplish these things, I have to adjust my stroke according to the paddle which I am using. The stroke variation comes in when either the blade shape or the shaft length change. If the kayak paddle shaft is long, then I cannot stroke close to the boat without raising my upper hand too high, so I adjust my stroke by stroking further from my boat. This is less efficient, for it adds a greater steering component and somewhat limits my rotation, but for extended periods is preferable to having my hand up in the sky. If the canoe paddle shaft is too long, I adjust my stroke by not extending as far on the catch with my upper arm but still extending my lower arm. This changes the blade's angle of entry to something more acute than perpendicular, which is inefficient, so I choke on the start of the pull (which usually is the most powerful part). Similarly, I delay the recovery because I cannot get a long shaft paddle out at my hips without carving under the water excessively. This too is inefficient, for past my hips the angle of the blade is no where near perpendicular, so again I choke on the effort to avoid lifting water with my blade. With a delayed recovery my stroke lengthens, so my stroke rate slows. Probably the greatest difference can be seen between a sprint racing canoe paddle and a marathon paddle. In a sprint canoe I am raised up on a kneeler which is mounted on a raised floorboard, and I am in a high kneel position. To maximize my stroke (catch as far forward as possible at near perpendicular, lower thumb of upper hand at eye level), I use a paddle that is very long -- almost as long as a short wild water kayak paddle! However, with a marathon canoe, where I sit down below the gunwales and cannot kip forward, I accomplish the optimal catch and hand at eye level stuff with a very short bent paddle which comes up to my sternum. As far as blade sizes go, I find I adjust my stroke according to the size. I will put about the same amount of energy into every stroke. If the blade is big, I will exert effort against it for a shorter period and extend the recovery phase . If the blade is small, I will exert effort against it for a longer period and shorten the recovery phase. The trick is to try to keep it within the optimal envelope defined by a near perpendicular catch and a recovery at the hips. Therefore, all things being equal as far as completing the stroke within the envelope goes, I will use a slower, less exerting stroke with a big blade, and a quicker, more exerting stroke with a small blade, so that either way I will have used the same amount of juice overall. Although I adjust my stroke rate according to blade size, there is still an optimal rate to be found. Too fast a stroke rate and I get all tangled up. Too slow a stroke rate and I burn out my muscles (in general it is better to have quick exertions and quick rests rather than long exertions and long rests, for at a certain point a long rest can't make up for a long exertion ). This pretty much establishes my optimal stroke rate, and I try to find a blade to match. There are extrinsic factors beyond my position in the boat which will affect my choice of paddle. For example, in wild water, where I need to have explosive power for acceleration, I tend to go for a shorter paddle and larger blade. This allows me to get in a handful of hugely powerful strokes when I need them, but leaves me pretty drained. Since most recreational wild water is no more than drifting along and setting your angle and lean, I have time to recover between these periods of intense exertion. It is also less unweildly than a long shaft when it comes to Duffeks. However, when running huge water, I use a regular length shaft rather than a short shaft because it give me better leverage for braces and lets me dig down into green water more easily. Where I do not need sudden acceleration and wish to conserve energy (e.g. canoe tripping, where it is vital to not get worn down, for being tired leads to making mistakes), I use regular length shaft and a regular sized blade. If I am in the stern, where I prefer to sit up on the back deck rather than down on the seat, I will use a longer shaft. If my partner has a weaker stroke than me, then I will use a narrower blade and slack off on my stroke. Therefore, on most canoe trips I will end up sterning with a long shaft and narrow blade. For sea kayak touring I do not need explosive power and wish to conserve energy, so I use a regular length shaft and regular blade. If I am using my big boat and have it fully loaded, I have to reduce the size of my blade due to the extra inertia of the boat and gear (this is similar to gearing down when pulling a trailer behind a car). The nice thing about this set up is that although it is not optimal for acceleration, it does a fairly good job in allowing me to zip up to people, or to accelerate onto a wave by simply increasing my stroke rate -- if the blade were standard size I would wear my arms off doing this. Due to the blade being small, I find that even with a large loaded boat I am not tired at the end of the day, which again is extremely important for safety. I am not thrilled with the lack of leverage for bracing and rolls, but since I prefer to wait out nasty stuff on shore when on extended trips, I do not find myself tackling water where there is a serious chance of my being flipped, having difficulty popping back up, or having difficulty climbing back in. Therefore, while it is relatively easy to determine the optimal shaft length and blade size for a given position, this may not necessarily meet with extrinsic factors, including and not limited to the need for explosive power, the need to not get tired, your partner's technique and physique, your own body, and the mass of your boat and gear. Whenever you chose a paddle which is non-optimal for stroke technique, though perfectly appropriate for the circumstances in which you intend to use it, you have to modify your stroke to adjust for the inefficiencies. John also wrote: "Perhaps this is a worthwhile experiment for someone. Give a beginner who has never seen anyone paddle before new paddles of different lengths and then see what their strokes look like. Maybe, if we let our bodies do their own thing, w could arrive at the best (or close to best) stroke without instruction." While I think that there is merit to this, you have to consider a couple of things which I believe suggest that instruction is usually required as part of the learning process. First, the boat will tend to limit what a beginner is willing to attempt, and second, through repetition, a paddler will tend to become more entrenched in his or her technique, be it good or bad. For example, very few wild water paddlers have a good forward stroke, for they are so locked into their boats that they tend to not use their legs when stroking. Because they do not use their legs, their rotation is hindered. Because their rotation is hindered, they pull by bending their arms. Thus instead of using fairly straight arms to transmit rotational force generated by most of the rest of their bodies, they tend to just use their arms, which are relatively weak and which burn out quickly. It is much like comparing a row boat to a rowing shell, where the person in the row boat more often than not will simply row with his or her arms, whereas a person in a rowing shell will start the stroke at the toes and work on up thoughout the entire body. Although using full rotation may be intuitive, the boat is a major impediment, to such a degree that corrective instruction is usually necessary. The same can be said for sprint canoes and kayaks. Aside from being so darn tippy, they are ideal for letting a person intuitively develop a good stroke. Paddling a sprint canoe is as natural as stepping out and grabbing a barber pole as you fall forward, sort of like a controlled crash, and kipping your hips forward, which anyone past puberty is probably well practised at. The only hitch is that most beginners have little if any ability to balance such a boat, even with the kneeler and floorboard removed. They have to learn to not fall out before they can learn to fall forward, and often this gives them habits which are hard to break, including not aggressively striding out for the catch. Again, corrective instruction is often needed. By the way, this is one of the reasons that war canoes (C-15 sprint racing canoes) are so popular as instructional platforms. They are relatively stable, but are paddled in the high kneeling position. Therefore new paddlers get to intuitively develop good stroke technique because they are not hindered by the boat itself. Hull shape also affects a new paddler's learning of balance. Again, I have found that wild water paddlers tend to have relatively poorly developed balance skills, whereas sprint paddlers tend to have good balance skills. Wild water boats tend to be very stable, fairly flat hulled craft, so it takes a fair bit to flip them. Therefore, there is little need to develop balance skills. When wild water paddlers get in trouble, they tend to lay down a brace, rather than to catch the problem early and avoid having to brace by adjusting with their bodies. Sprint boats tend to be very tippy, rounded hulled craft, so keeping them from flipping can be quite a task. Just by sitting in the boat at the dock for an hour or so allows most beginners to start to intuitively develop balance and relaxation skills. Thus if you explain moving water dynamics to a sprint kayaker, he or she can usually hop in a wild water kayak and have little difficulty in handling class II wild water, whereas an intermediate wild water paddler will probably have difficulty floating a sprint boat. Thus you have sprint boats hindering intuitive stoke development because they are so tippy, wild water boats hindering both intuitive stroke and balance development because they are so restrictive and so stable, and recreational boats hindering everything because they are so unresponsive. The new paddler can't win for trying! What a good instructor can offer is to get a paddler into the most appropriate boat, or varieties of boats, for his or her level of skill. Ideally, an instructor at a well equipped club should have access to recreational, sprint, wildwater and marathon canoes and kayaks. He or she should be able to identify which skills a beginner needs to work on to become a well rounded paddler with good basic technique, and then find the appropriate boat in which to develop these skills. The trick is to put the beginner in a boat which will encourage intuitive development of a particular skill, rather than limit it, and once the beginner is repeating the correct technique for a particular skill, then take use this skill as a building block and move on to a different design of boat which can help intuitively develop a different skill. By carefully selecting boats, a good instructor can use the various designs to help the new paddler intuitively develop a range of skills, rather than be limited by the hindrances inherent to any one design. This can accomplish two things. First, and most importantly, it can help prevent the beginner from developing poor technique. If a beginner intuitively learns poor technique which has been limited by a particular design of boat, then it can be very difficult to unlearn. It is best not to develop and reinforce the bad technique in the first place. Second, even if a beginner is more or less moving intuitively in the right direction, and good instructor can speed things along significantly by closing off some blind alleys. For example, I have a hard time learning anything. (I am not too bright, am poorly coordinated, and don't look too pretty to boot.) I tend to need to have the theory explained, and then watch and mimic. Thus for me the best way to work on technique is to talk about it on the dock and then to hop into the second seat and mimic the stroke. I am not suggesting that this is what works for most people, for we all learn differently, but for those who do learn this way, an instructor can save a lot of time and frustration. Finally, although I believe that a good instructor can be of great assistance in helping a person learn good technique, I think it is important that the instructor should always remember that whatever skill is being taught, it must be based on what intuitively works for the student. I would like to turn to skiing for a moment to look at this. Remember the 70s, where ski instruction could be summed up as "squeeze the knees, five dollars please"? Basic technique was forsaken for a flavour of the month approach. Why in the world would one wish to ski with feet glued together? It is counter intuitive -- from walking we all have our own natural stance, so why mess with it? Why move to something less stable and which limits independent leg movement? Yes, there are place for a narrow stance, such as in the bumps or in tight trees, but this should not be confused with good basic technique. Why did instructors teach this? It looked cool. Unfortunately, it left a great many skiers plateaued as intermediates, and having to relearn their basic technique before moving on to greater challenges. Quite simply, the instructors of the period forgot to go back to basics, think through the mechanics, and encourage exercises which would intuitively work toward good basic technique development. Their approach was counter-intuitive, and was a dismal failure. I am concerned that this sort of thing occasionally happens in paddling. For example, some wild water instructors often spend a great proportion of their time helping their students learn to roll, whereas if they worked on basic balance and stroke technique, rolls would come along pretty much intuitively (a roll is no more than a combination of more basic moves). The result of over emphasis on rolls is novice paddlers who are good at rolling up rather than not rolling in the first place, which puts them at greater risk than need be. Similarly, some of the things which I see being taught by recreational canoe instructors leave me shaking my head. Would a sprint boat run up to the dock and slam on the brakes that quickly? Would a wild water paddler extend him or herself so far out of the boat on such a high brace? Would a canoe tripper stuff the paddle vertically under the bow of the canoe to execute a turn? Why is every kid in the province taught how to change seats with his or her partner without landing on shore? The answer is not that these stunts are fundamental to developing good technique, but because they are either fun to do or look cool. Therefore, when I am looking at instructors, I always ask myself if they seem to have a good grasp of basic technique and have the ability to help their students develop it. I get a bit antsy when I come across instructors who are into teaching stupid pet tricks, or a great many fancy strokes, for I keep coming across paddlers who are taking courses but are never learning how to balance a boat or how to efficiently paddle forward. Since these students have few basic skills, it is very difficult for them to master more complex or compound skills which due to the limitations of the boats might be less intuitive (e.g. a Duffek turn, which in a flat bottomed boat requires a leap in faith the first time you try it, unless you are already very confident in you balance skills). Unfortunately, sitting beside the dock in a sprint boat learning balance, or high-kneeling on a gang-plank learning the four parts of the forward stroke is not nearly as sexy as learning the Klink Dipsy Doodle, or whatever fancy stroke or manoeuvre can be shown off to the crowds. A good instructor needs to keep things interesting, but not lose sight of the basics. By always going back to the mechanics of the stroke, and then matching the paddler with the appropriate boats, the appropriate paddles, and the appropriate exercises, the instructor can help the paddler develop good technique as intuitively as possible, rather than arbitrarily learn technique without ever gaining the feeling of how very right it is. My personal preference for most, but not all, basic instruction is to encourage intuitive development in conjunction with a theoretical framework, demonstrations, exercises, and the detect and correct method on very minute technical points. We will talk about some theory, perhaps try some dry-land exercises, and I will give a demonstration just to make sure everyone is working on the same wavelength, and then I will let my students loose to try the technique on their own. I encourage them to try different approaches, and offer a few suggestions if they are heading down a blind alley. Eventually they usually settle into something which feels right to them, and because they have their options guided by my comments, they end up learning the right technique. If I spot them doing something right, I encourage them to repeat it until it becomes second nature, and if I spot them doing something wrong, I encourage them to remember how it feels and then to try doing it differently and compare the results. I try to set them up to succeed, but ultimately it they have to learn what their body is telling them. For example, if I want to teach canoeists the catch phase of the forward stroke, I will go over the theory of using leverage, and then on shore will have them lunge at small tree trunks and catch themselves. This is pretty intuitive (I expect that just about everyone has tripped but caught themselves on a counter or piece of furniture before falling to the ground). Then we move to the dock and try the same thing. Again, it is pretty intuitive, for although the paddle and water are new elements, the basic move is little different from the lunge at the tree. Before you know it, most students will intuitively start to kip forward once they have done the catch. Those that don't usually are bending their arms, so I come along and ask them to try it with one or the other or both arms straight and compare the results. Sure enough, they fiddle about for a while and usually come up with a straight lower arm and slightly bent upper arm all on their own. Thus while learning the catch phase, they have intuitively begun to move on to the pull phase. High Ho Silver Away! In later lessons we finish learning the parts of the forward stroke, and we work on how to modify the stroke under different circumstances, such as moving from a sprint canoe to a loaded tripping canoe, or from a canoe to a kayak. The nice thing about this is that the students learn how to learn -- how to think back to basic stroke mechanics and adapt according to their circumstances, and how to listen to their bodies rather than to move in an arbitrary manner. It also makes it easier for me in later years, for if we are working on something, I know that we will share a common understanding of technique and vocabulary, so that rather than fiddling about, we can move directly to the crux of an issue, try some options, and come up with solutions quickly, rather than go back and do remedial work. So is learning to paddle intuitive? Yes and no. Boats, equipment and what one sees other poor paddlers doing usually limits the ability of new paddlers to intuitively develop good paddling technique. However, good instructors can help by matching paddlers with boats and equipment appropriate to the development of a particular skill, can help demonstrate skills for new paddlers to mimic, can help provide exercises and criticism and can help new paddlers fit the skill into an intellectual framework. Essentially, a good instructor will control the variables -- eliminate the extraneous or detrimental factors -- so that a new paddler will intuitively develop good basic skills, and then the instructor will reinforce these skills while using them as a base for further skill development. Theory and mimicry can help speed the process along tremendously, but will be to little avail if the basic learning is not intuitive, for this would leave the student with a limited ability to modify technique when circumstances change. Call it what you will -- Paddle Fu, Wu Wei of Wild Water, Zen Dog -- it all comes down do being able to understand what your body wants you to do. Since there are so many variables, a controlled learning process is usually preferable, but as far as possible should be based on an intuitive approach. Richard Culpeper *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:32:48 PDT