If NOAA charts are public domain . . . why doesnt someone do us all a big favor and scan them and post them on the net? Might put a few NOAA dealers out of business, I suppose, but why should we all pay for what we have already bought (as taxpayers) anyway? In fact, why doesnt NOAA just post its charts digitally? Could it be that the people who make money reproducing them and selling them would howl too loudly? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, May 14, 1998 at 12:27:45PM +0000, Karl Coplan wrote: > If NOAA charts are public domain . . . why doesnt someone do us all a > big favor and scan them and post them on the net? Might put a few > NOAA dealers out of business, I suppose, but why should we all pay > for what we have already bought (as taxpayers) anyway? > > In fact, why doesnt NOAA just post its charts digitally? Could it > be that the people who make money reproducing them and selling them > would howl too loudly? Ding ding ding ding. It's also probably because most (US) government agencies are incredibly backward technologically. It's been a major battle just to get FOIA requests fulfilled electronically. And even some government agencies which *do* put things on-line often do it badly. For example, the Pennsylvania DER has a large number of documents on their web site in Word format. Not ASCII text. Not HTML. Not even PDF -- but Word, a proprietary format licensed by a single company. Repeated applications of the clue-by-four to their webmeisters don't seem to have gotten the point through their skulls that the web *was invented because of the proprietary formats* and exists primarily to render them superfluous. So you're quite right: every public document that governments generate should be online: it's easy, it's cheap, it's fast. But the entrenched methods of decades (or centuries) are hard to shake. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk_at_gsp.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 01:14 PM 5/14/98 -0400, Rich Kulawiec wrote: Not ASCII text. Not HTML. >Not even PDF -- but Word, a proprietary format licensed by a single company. > >Repeated applications of the clue-by-four to their webmeisters don't >seem to have gotten the point through their skulls that the web >*was invented because of the proprietary formats* and exists primarily >to render them superfluous. > >So you're quite right: every public document that governments generate >should be online: it's easy, it's cheap, it's fast. But the entrenched >methods of decades (or centuries) are hard to shake. Please don't take this as a flame...but as far as I know PDF is a proprietary format too. Adobe owns the rights to the "distiller" that writes "Portable Data Format" files in Acrobat, and distributes the only reader in Acrobat reader. If there are others, especially cheaper others, I'd love to know. Wynne Eden Americus, GA USA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, May 14, 1998 at 11:42:21PM -0400, Wynne Eden wrote: > Please don't take this as a flame...but as far as I know PDF is a > proprietary format too. Adobe owns the rights to the "distiller" that > writes "Portable Data Format" files in Acrobat, and distributes the only > reader in Acrobat reader. If there are others, especially cheaper others, > I'd love to know. You're correct, and you're not. Lemme expain. Yes, PDF is an Adobe-only format, however, the big differences are that: 1. They published the full specifications 2. Free PDF readers exist for just about every platform 3. Free PDF writers are starting to emerge as well So while Adobe "owns" PDF and gets to modify it as they see fit, they have recognized that the only way it will become popular (as PostScript did in its time) is to ensure that anyone and everyone can create products which cope with it. Maybe I should use the phrase "non-published format" instead. I'm using xpdf (free) and ghostview 5.10 (free) to deal with PDF here; both run on a large variety of Unix/Linux systems, and I think ghostview also runs on some other platforms (e.g. VMS). I compiled both from the source code -- also free. One side point -- in re the PA DER site -- many of the documents there are simple text such as meeting agendas, meeting minutes, regulations, etc. There is *no need* whatsoever to format them in any fancy way because no additional information is conveyed by such formatting. (Unlike, say, a technical report with embedded diagrams and tables and equations, where typography can be used to assist the communication process.) So not only have they put these documents in a proprietary format, but in doing so they have needlessly bloated them from a few Kbytes to sizes ranging from 10 to 25 times that size. I'm all for conveying information -- and doubly so when it can be done via the 'net. But I'm also for conveying information *wisely*, which to me means, among other things, carefully choosing when to get fancy and when to stay simple. I've made my own mistakes in this area, so I certainly can't claim infallibility: but what the PA DER has done is clearly braindead. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk_at_gsp.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:27 PM 5/14/98 EST5EDT, Karl Coplan wrote: >If NOAA charts are public domain . . . why doesnt someone do us all a >big favor and scan them and post them on the net? FYI... for those who backpack as well as kayak, USGS maps are available on the net (for a small fee) through www.rei.com. You buy the maps through a service that works through and is billed through REI. The cost is $3.99 and you get a viewer & print software. 7.5 min. maps are available for Calif., Oregon, and Washington state. Others are being added slowly. I've downloaded a number of 7.5 min. maps and they really don't take that long. I would imagine the NOAA would be able to do the same thing if a company was willing to handle the transactions for them. The company which handles the TOPO maps is Horizon Maps and they're based in San Diego. Nadine Jonathan and Nadine MacLane, San Diego, Cal. USA. jonathan_at_lanz.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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