To: >internet:paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >> I'm confused ... after many of the reps told me about how careful one has to be with a fiberglass OR kevlar boat ... Plastic kayaks got their "indestructable" reputation on whitewater rivers, where impact breakage is a major concern. But in other types of use I am convinced fiberglass (or kevlar) kayaks have a clear advantage for long term durability. Polyethylene is a soft material, and it shaves easily on barnacles and sharp rocks (like shale). Deep gouges and cracks can be repaired in linear polyethylene with a hot air gun and a stick of the material; however, none of the manufacturers have been able to tell me how to repair wear over a wide area, such as under the seat. We have never had a plastic kayak in our rental fleet for more than one summer for this reason, and I think you will find that most plastic sea kayak rental outfits turn their fleets over rapidly. Fiberglass is a much more durable material for sea kayaks in my experience. While the gel coat is thin, it is harder and can be repaired (if necessary) over and over. We keep each fiberglass kayak in our fleet for many years. For example, I recently had the bottom of an Eddyline Wind Dancer that had been in our fleet since 1992 resprayed with gelcoat at a local fiberglass shop. It looked great, was in top condtion, and we got top dollar for it despite the considerable use it had received. And it was a good long term buy for the folks who have it. Provisos: We give our rental customers very thorough instruction, both relating to their own safety and the care of our equipment. We teach doing parallel landings in protected places, so the kayaks can be kept floating while being loaded and unloaded, then picked up and carried rather than dragged. Most of our beaches here bedrock or cobble, gravel if look around a bit, and very rarely sand. Even with care, though, the boats do get their scrapes over time. Landing hard on sand will eventually wear away the gelcoat, but that's no big deal if you paint on some more before you start cutting into the fibers underneath (usually it's just in a few spots). Fiberglass & kevlar kayaks have the advantage of light weight, making it easier to carry the kayak rather than dragging it. Also being more durable than plastic kayaks for sea kayaking, their only downside is higher initial cost. Despite the higher initial cost, all of the hardshell kayaks in our rental fleet are fiberglass (we also have folding kayaks). Generally, I recommend against kevlar for single seaters due to slight bang for the buck in weight savings. With doubles though, enough weight can be saved in some models for one person to pick up the kayak and carry it gunwale on-shoulder, perhaps making the cost worthwhile. If durability is important, don't urge the manufacturer to make a kevlar kayak "real light." The panels may be too flexible and you will get gelcoat cracks, and perhaps even structural problems at hard points. A kevlar single properly built for expedition use will weigh almost as much as its fiberglass counterpart. A similar double may be 8-10 lb lighter than its counterpart. Sorry for the lengthly reply. -- Larry Edwards Sitka, Alaska http://execpc.com/~bboats *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 98-05-18 18:14:53 EDT, BarbiRyan_at_aol.com writes: << I'm so confused! I attended a 'kayak demo day' this past weekend. I tried out appr. 20 kayaks, initially wanting to purchase a nice kevlar boat. I currently have an Ocean Scrambler and a Jocassee and am ready for something a little lighter and somewhat more 'high performance'. After many of the reps told me about how careful one has to be with a fiberglass OR kevlar boat (i.e., not drag it over the sand, etc.), I'm not sure what I should get! I tried a few plastic boats --- I really want one with a rudder (I paddle in the mouth of the Cheaspeake Bay). We live a couple of blocks away and use a cart to transport it. I liked the Shadow the best, but was told that it would be too small for my 6'2" hubby. The Sea Lion also seemed nice -- although somewhat more roomy in the cockpit, it would hopefully hold my husband. I'm not sure if I will like to haul a 67 pound boat over a sand dune! I also tried an Epic (wild. systems) which I liked. What are your thoughts? The kayak store has already placed an order for their summer boats --- if I don't want to pay shipping, I must let them know in the next couple of days. HELP! >> Barbi, first thing is --- don't panic. There are a lot of boats out there! There are a lot of kayak stores. You really don't have to decide in a couple of days. The folks in Virginia Beach have a great store --- assuming you're talking about Wild River --- but they're not the only dealers in the general area --- three to four hours away? And you don't have to buy "new", either. Most area and regional clubs have good, totally functional boats that are a few years old --- at a lot better price than new. A few points --- fiberglass doesn't really like being dragged around, but it's not going to destroy your boat to be beached with a running start. Plastic doesn't exactly love being dragged through the dunes, either, but is more forgiving. But you don't have to treat composite boats like they're fine china. Sounds like you and your husband intend to paddle the same boat. That's often an interesting challenge. I'm 6'2", 185 lbs, and I rattle around in my Sea Lion, but my 5'3" daughter can paddle it reasonably well. And there are a lot of them available on the secondary market. Lots! Try one for a year --- keep it if you like it, sell it if you don't or if you outgrow it. But they're heavy! You might want to try the Chesapeake Paddler Association listserve for ideas on used boats. Let me know if you want details. ANorAK is an association that has a newsletter with a lot of good used boats, too. But don't rush into a decision. There are too many options to make a quick --- and potentially wrong and expensive --- decision. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 03:35 PM 5/19/98 -0400, Larry Edwards wrote: (summary): extensively about the relative advantages of fiberglass boats. What he left out is that fiberglass hull shapes are MUCH faster and easier to paddle because they can assume a more streamlined shape than roto-molded plastic. I traded my plastic Sea Lion for a glass boat because the glass boat handles the "gnarly" water and difficult conditions better than plastic. . . and it's much faster on the water. I don't race, but keeping up with the other boats rapidly became a constant issue with me in the plastic Sea Lion. . . Nonetheless, the Sea Lion is a great design and very rugged. It's a standard pick in rental fleets because of it's durability and high-volume versitility. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Geo. Bergeron wrote: > What he left out is that fiberglass hull shapes are MUCH faster and > easier to paddle because they can assume a more streamlined shape than > roto-molded plastic. I traded my plastic Sea Lion for a glass boat because > the glass boat handles the "gnarly" water and difficult conditions better > than plastic. . . and it's much faster on the water. That's the theory I hear a lot - along with, "plastic is slower cause energy is used to flex the hull." Does anyone know if it has been tested? And if so, how much faster is MUCH faster? Say, for example, what is the resistance difference between a Current Designs Solstice (glass), and the plastic version of that, the Storm? Is the glass twice as fast? 10% faster? 3% faster? Is it possible that the difference people feel between their old plastic boat and their new glass boat is due to the fact that they happened to have a slow hull design in the plastic and now have a fast hull design in the glass? Perhaps because when they bought the plastic, initial stability felt more important, and now with improved skills other things feel more important? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 06:52 PM 5/19/98 -0500, Robert Cline wrote: >When I first saw the (plastic) sea lion, I really liked its looks and >thought it might perform well. However, after a paddle, I was amazed at how >I disliked the sea lion. I didn't buy the boat. Hope it is better in fiber >glass than it is in plastic. > >Robert So. . . "HOW" did you dislike it? I thought it was slow and heavy. Although I paddled in some pretty nasty clapotis with it, I was never comfortable with the stability, but I figured this was more about my skills than the boat. Come on! We need to know the problems with this very popular boat. (And it's subjective!) Geo. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
The comments on glass vs plastic were super. No doubt glass is great (I own an old car made of the stuff!) but I paddle a plastic seakayak. In fact, I just purchased a Current Designs Squall. First, as an intermediate level guy I couldn't commit to the cost of a glass boat. Thats a big factor to a lot of people. Despite the nasty comments by "experts" like Derek Hutchinson, I have found that plastic fits my needs, abilities and environment quite nicely. I tend to not take care of my boats very gingerly. I slide them onto the roof of my car. On occasion, I have lost control and dropped them off the car (broke the windshield, dented the fender and bent a mirror in 3 separate incidents). Basically, the boat just bounces. I kayak as a part of a rebuild of a back injury. Unfortunately, I tend to drag my boat over rough terrain rather than risk a re-injury (soon that will change). Yes, the bottom of the boat scratches, yes, it is wrong to do, yes it hastens the vessels demise but I'm out there... you gotta have priorities. I would rather be abusing my plastic boat than worrying about a much more expensive glass beauty. Also, I tend to think that I will outgrow a boat in 2 or so years as I move up the ability ladder or choose between racing and camping etc. So, the long-term survivability/repair things are a non-issue. Choose your material based on what will work for you, your lifestyle/paddlestyle, your long term outlook and your budget. Don't just rule out plastic because its not "the best". There is a nice niche for the material in seakayak construction. How did I choose the boat? I went to a demo day. Spent an afternoon flailing around in all the boats. I tried glass so that I had a feel for what was "good". I tried "expert" boats, British boats, Greenland boats, round boats, yellow boats, fat boats etc etc. After a while it became very clear what was "good" for me. It was a combo of speed, fit, secondary stability and out of the box "ready to go" product (I don't have time rite now to start foaming, ruddering, building, rigging and customising). This Squall was the nicest handling, tracking, fitting etc boat in the plastic fleet (for me). It didn't weathercock (most annoying to me), It fit (me) nearly perfectly, It had a nice rudder system (had never used a rudder before that day) etc. I found it to be similar in handling to the CD glass GTS/HV model (#1 choice). It also had all the room I need for camping. As I narrowed the choices, I took a ride in one then went back and toured the Squall. I would do specific moves and compare how each did. Doing that rapidly gave you a good feel of what was really happening in each boat. So after a while it became clear which boats were where I wanted to be. Lastly, the reason there are so many boat designs is that there are so many different people with different tastes/needs/abilities. Dont fall into the trap of listening to someone tell you "well if your serious about riding a force 10 wave get........" . I listened to a bunch of decked out yakers wax poetic how the British designs are so much better than anything on earth, no, in the galaxy. So I figured I would try a British boat (Valley). Oy, It wasn't my cup of tea, as they say. The cockpit was crude and stark with juts and ridges for things I know not what , the handling was, well, different (really can't put my finger on it), the skeg worked sometimes or jammed and overall I was not happy. Now I'm sure there are people that love all the stuff of that boat, it just didn't work for me. Guess thats why I drive an American car rather than a British one (I hit my head on all the Brit machines) So there you have it, another long winded, old buzzzard commentary on how nice it is to have a choice. Tom *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Brian wrote; (SNIP of George's post) : >That's the theory I hear a lot - along with, "plastic is slower cause energy is >used to flex the hull." Does anyone know if it has been tested? And if so, how >much faster is MUCH faster? Say, for example, what is the resistance >difference between a Current Designs Solstice (glass), and the plastic version >of that, the Storm? Is the glass twice as fast? 10% faster? 3% faster? Is >it possible that the difference people feel between their old plastic boat and >their new glass boat is due to the fact that they happened to have a slow hull >design in the plastic and now have a fast hull design in the glass? Perhaps >because when they bought the plastic, initial stability felt more important, >and now with improved skills other things feel more important? Poly boats do have more resistance due to the surface finish (rough center seams etc..) and propensity of scratches that are proud of the hull surface and often have hairy projections. The increase in frictional resistance coefficient is roughly 3%. Not a whole lot but there nonetheless. I know of no reason why a poly boat can't have as good a shape as an FRP boat. I don't know why they don't. The one thing that makes poly boats less responsive (probably is the thing most people notice) is the weight and, in particular the heavier ends. Makes the boat less "lively". The flexible and often distorted bottoms also erode performance but I am not sure by how much. I am awaiting a program to study that. Not sure when I will get it as it is much delayed. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > Poly boats do have more resistance due to the surface finish (rough center > seams etc..) and propensity of scratches that are proud of the hull > surface and often have hairy projections. The increase in frictional > resistance coefficient is roughly 3%. Not a whole lot but there > nonetheless. > > I know of no reason why a poly boat can't have as good a shape as an FRP > boat. I don't know why they don't. > > The one thing that makes poly boats less responsive (probably is the thing > most people notice) is the weight and, in particular the heavier ends. > Makes the boat less "lively". The flexible and often distorted bottoms also > erode performance but I am not sure by how much. I am awaiting a program to > study that. Not sure when I will get it as it is much delayed. I don't have the experience to know what "lively" means. But I assume the 10 lb difference in weight between poly and glass is trivial with respect to resistance. And I assume, that since you did not mention energy lost in flexing the boat (something I've heard from sales folks) that you consider it unimportant. Thus, in terms of energy spent in a long day of paddling, it sounds like 3% or so is my only worry. And that is well within my range of acceptable. Thanks! Brian *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > >Poly boats do have more resistance due to the surface finish (rough center >seams etc..) and propensity of scratches that are proud of the hull >surface and often have hairy projections. The increase in frictional >resistance coefficient is roughly 3%. Not a whole lot but there >nonetheless. Brian Heath replied: >Thus, in terms of energy spent in a long day of paddling, it >sounds like 3% or so is my only worry. And that is well within my range of >acceptable. Thanks! I don't know about boat hulls, but with airplane wings, a rough surface, such as clear and especially rime icing not only increases the coeficient of resistance (called drag) it completeley destroys the lift capacity of the wing. A little roughness on the surface destroys the laminar flow... In other words... it won't fly. I would suspect that a boat hull might be similarly, although not as drastically, effected. I mean, it is not going to sing. However, it is not the resistance that is so critical with the wing, but the destruction of laminar flow. The question is John, does this analogy apply to the boat hull and is the 3% therefore, worse than it sounds? Robert *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Robert wrote; (SNIP) > >I don't know about boat hulls, but with airplane wings, a rough surface, >such as clear and especially rime icing not only increases the coeficient >of resistance (called drag) it completeley destroys the lift capacity of >the wing. A little roughness on the surface destroys the laminar flow... >In other words... it won't fly. I would suspect that a boat hull might be >similarly, although not as drastically, effected. I mean, it is not going >to sing. However, it is not the resistance that is so critical with the >wing, but the destruction of laminar flow. The question is John, does this >analogy apply to the boat hull and is the 3% therefore, worse than it >sounds? No. In the case of the airplane the loss of lift is the serious part not the drag. In the boat case it is just more drag. Laminar flow only exists over a very short portion of the boat (rarely more than a foot or two) due to the constant yawing, particulate in the water, wave action, pitching, surging etc. The increase I quoted is for an increase over the normal turbulent flow condition existing for a hydrodynamically smooth surface. Note this is turbulence in the boundary layer and not eddy making that may occur at the stern. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:32:49 PDT