Alright Dave you win, However the reason for my post is I see alot of people buying fiberglass gulf umbrelles thinking the nonconductive nature of the shaft will make them safe from lighting. It may make them a little safer. They should seek cover, they can. On a kayak we may not be able to. For this reason I have to agree that non-conductive is safer but only a little. We may not agree on the details but alumimium is out. With that I have said my piece. Jim >>> Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_seasurf.com> 05/05/98 09:45am >>> Jim Martin wrote: > > Don't worry about coductivity. There is no way to insulate from the high > voltage. Remember it has enough voltage to arc across thousands for > feet of air. It takes roughly 18,000 volts to arc a fraction of an inch. The > problem with being on the water in a lighting storm is your the highest > point. i.e. the one electrode in a circuit. [snip] > >>> Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_seasurf.com> 05/05/98 05:03am >>> > Bob Denton wrote: > > > > I wonder if Carbon Fiber is a positive or negative feature (no pun > > intended) in a lightning storm. > > Probably not a significantly better conductor than a wet (with water) > glass/epoxy shaft, but I don't know the specific conductance of a > carbon fiber/epoxy laminate. Well, Jim, not to put too fine a point on this pencil, but I suspect the conductivity of the stick we swing over our heads *might* make a difference. Here's the physics, as I understand it: When a voltage (potential) difference builds up between cloud and ground (preparatory to a lightning strike between the two), the distribution of the intensity of the electric field along the ground will partially (entirely?) determine the point on the ground the lightning strikes. If there is a pointed object *which readily conducts electricity* sticking up, the local electric field off the tip of the pointed object is more intense than it is on the surrounding, flat, relatively nonconductive surface. This means the pointed object is much more likely to take the hit, as the "step leader" arcs down from the cloud, "searching" for the path of least resistance. This is one of the reasons lightning arresters on the tops of buildings are purposely pointed and made of conducting metal electrically connected to ground. A *nonconductive* pointed object, especially one without a good conductive path to ground, thus is less likely to be the struck object by a lightning bolt. I think your assertion is correct that it makes no difference what you are holding on to *once the bolt has chosen you*: It could be a long, air-filled party balloon, and it would get ionized and turned to plasma just like the air the stroke passed through on its way down. I think, on the other hand, holding a long, pointed, conductive rod to the sky makes it *more likely* the bolt will pick you or your location. Re: the original question: I question whether carbon fiber laminates are significantly more conductive than glass fiber laminates -- and doubt the difference is enough to increase the chance a strike will hit a carbon fiber shaft. I'm not a physics guy, but I think this is correct. I'd be happy to be corrected if I'm wrong, however -- THAT happens a lot! I'm copying this to Les Uhrich, physics instructor up near Tacoma, for his scrutiny, in case I've got it wrong. What say, Les? -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR chemist *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Philip, The idea behind my post is that you can't really insulate from lighting, and it's dangerous and unpredictable so beware no matter what type of paddle you have. As for an aluminum framed skin boat I yield to the physics professor. Jim >>> Philip Wylie <pjwylie_at_planet.eon.net> 05/05/98 10:45pm >>> Jim, What should our concern be for those of us who paddle Dyson Aluminum framed/Nylon & Neoprene, Hypalon skinned baidarka while out on the water with lightning potential? Cheers, Philip Wylie Edmonton, Alta Jim Martin wrote: > > Don't worry about coductivity. There is no way to insulate from the high > voltage. Remember it has enough voltage to arc across thousands for > feet of air. It takes roughly 18,000 volts to arc a fraction of an inch. The > problem with being on the water in a lighting storm is your the highest > point. i.e. the one electrode in a circuit. > > I saw a really good article about lighting protection for boats in a past > issue of Wooden Boat. Basically there's nothing you can do in a kayak > besides get off the water however this article did have some interesting > information about larger boats esp sail boats. Properly rigged as sail > boat is safe in a lightling storm if you stay off the rigging and don't touch > the cables and mast. > > If any one is interested in the particular Wooden Boat Issue, E-mail me > and I'll tell you which issue it was. I would have included it in this post > however my issues are at home and I'm not there. > > Jim > > >>> Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_seasurf.com> 05/05/98 05:03am >>> > Bob Denton wrote: > > > > I wonder if Carbon Fiber is a positive or negative feature (no pun > > intended) in a lightning storm. > > Probably not a significantly better conductor than a wet (with water) > glass/epoxy shaft, but I don't know the specific conductance of a > carbon > fiber/epoxy laminate. Maybe that "Lightning!" paddle guy will know -- > he makes 'em, after all! > > -- > Dave Kruger > Astoria, OR > sea kayaker -- and chemist > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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