Hi fellow paddlers, I can't believe the hipe about paddles that is going on. Last year I attended a session on a beach where one of the countries top Marathon coaches was talking about paddling efficiently. One thing he said was that the paddle does not actually move through the water, it is very much like having a long series of posts set in concrete under the water - you reach forward with your left hand and pull yourself and kayak forward, then reach forward with the right hand and pull forward again. If he is right, and next time you are out paddling along at a reasonable speed put your paddle in next to a stationary floating object - you will see that it does barely move more than a inch or so. So if he is right, then it logically follows that the shape is irrelevant - all you need is some area of blade that will not move through the water. Maybe a couple of table tennis bats on the end of a piece of broom handle would be just as good as half the fancy paddles out there. Me, I'd rather be out paddling than become a gear freak, and spend the rest of my life talking about sea canoeing. So far this year I've done a 14 day trip to the Furneaux Group of islands, two separate 5 day trips to the Hunter Island Group (which includes one of only two Albatross rookeries in Tasmania), and numerous weekend trips. (See the Maatsuyker Canoe Club homepage as below) I paddle with other people in different types of kayaks, with different paddles to mine, and to each other - we all seem to paddle along at the same speed - the type of paddle seems relatively unimportant. My own paddle (for over 20 years) is 8'2" (2.5m) long. It has flat fibreglass blades (22" X 5") laid up on a one and half inch aluminium shaft. Laurie Ford. laurie.ford_at_tassie.net.au http://www.tassie.net.au/~lford *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Laurie Ford wrote: > > Hi fellow paddlers, > > ... Me, I'd rather be out paddling than become a gear freak ... Heretic! Every *true* paddler loves to argue about gear. :-) It may surprise you to learn that a lot of folks on this list spend quite a bit of time paddling. But some of us need to allow our aging and overworked muscles time to recover (no doubt due to our poor choice of gear). Why not spend some of this time arguing about issues for which there is no reasonable hope of resolution? Actually, I agree with you that it is extremely difficult to see any advantage to one type of paddle over another in a recreational setting. But this in no way diminishes the enjoyment to be derived from arguing about such things. Arguments tend to be more heated precisely in those cases where the stakes are very small. Dan Hagen ACP Certified Gear Head Bellingham, Washington *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Dan Hagen <dan_at_hagen.net> >It may surprise you to learn that a lot of folks on this list spend >quite a bit of time paddling. But some of us need to allow our aging >and overworked muscles time to recover (no doubt due to our poor choice >of gear). Why not spend some of this time arguing about issues for which >there is no reasonable hope of resolution? > >Actually, I agree with you that it is extremely difficult to see any >advantage to one type of paddle over another in a recreational setting. >But this in no way diminishes the enjoyment to be derived from arguing >about such things. Arguments tend to be more heated precisely in those >cases where the stakes are very small. > >Dan Hagen For example, I heatedly disagree that it is extremely difficult to see any advantage to one type of paddle. If you use a stopwatch over a measured distance, and for several time trials, using say a 7'2" wing and an 8' narrow blade paddle you will detect a huge, imense and, what is more, a big difference. Jerry >ACP Certified Gear Head >Bellingham, Washington >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 22 Jul 1998, Gerald Foodman wrote: > > From: Dan Hagen <dan_at_hagen.net> > > > >Actually, I agree with you that it is extremely difficult to see any > >advantage to one type of paddle over another in a recreational setting. > >But this in no way diminishes the enjoyment to be derived from arguing > >about such things. Arguments tend to be more heated precisely in those > >cases where the stakes are very small. > > > > For example, I heatedly disagree that it is extremely difficult to see any > advantage to one type of paddle. If you use a stopwatch over a measured > distance, and for several time trials, using say a 7'2" wing and an 8' > narrow blade paddle you will detect a huge, imense and, what is more, a big > difference. > > Jerry Of course there are differences among paddles. An Eskimo paddle may be better for long steady paddles (though I don't like them for that or any other purpose) whereas a wider euro paddle might be better for racing. Of course time trials are hardly a recreational setting, but that's not the point. Different paddles are better for different types of paddling. And a high stroke and wing paddle may be faster, and therefore used by racers, but that doesn't mean it will allow the average non-racing paddler to cover his or her maximum distance in a day. I have a fairly narrow Sawyer and a much wider and more curved Sidewinder. I'm noticeably (to me) faster with the Sidewinder, and I'm pretty sure I'd also tire faster using it, though I haven't yet used it enough to be sure. It's definitely harder to roll with. Regarding the original point that the paddle doesn't move, just the boat does - I have no idea whether that's true, but even if it is, why would it mean that the choice of paddle makes no difference? Presumably some paddles move a boat more per stroke than others, even if each were paddled in this non-moving style. Joy Hecht Arlington VA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Hagen <dan_at_hagen.net> > > >... it is extremely difficult to see any > >advantage to one type of paddle over another in a recreational setting. To which Gerry responded: > ... I heatedly disagree that it is extremely difficult to see any > advantage to one type of paddle. If you use a stopwatch over a measured > distance, and for several time trials, using say a 7'2" wing and an 8' > narrow blade paddle you will detect a huge, imense and, what is more, a big > difference. As I have stated previously, in the context of racing there is a significant difference. What I have been claiming is that there is little difference in the efficiency of modern versus Greenland paddles in the context of recreational touring (except in those rare cases where one needs to sprint). If you are suggesting that you need a time trial with several repetitions and a stopwatch to see the difference, then it would seem that you are helping to make my point. Based on the observations of myself and others, it is evident that people who use Greenland paddles have no difficulty in keeping up with their better-equiped counterparts when touring. Moreover, they do not seem to be more fatigued by the end of the day. Folks who use poor technique or who are in poor condition do have trouble keeping up and do become more fatigued, regardless of the type of paddle they use. In short, it has been my observation that one's choice of paddle has a trivial effect on paddling efficiency at typical touring speeds, in that any resulting difference in efficiency is swamped by even modest differences in technique and conditioning. Have others had similar experiences, or do folks who use Greenland paddles have difficulty in keeping up with their fellow paddlers? Admittedly this is not a scientific experiment. But my point is precisely that one would need a very carefully designed, well controlled experiment to see any difference, because the differences are so small (at typical touring speeds). Dan Hagen Bellingham, Washington *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dan wrote; (SNIP) > >As I have stated previously, in the context of racing there is a >significant difference. What I have been claiming is that there is >little difference in the efficiency of modern versus Greenland paddles >in the context of recreational touring (except in those rare cases where >one needs to sprint). If you are suggesting that you need a time trial >with several repetitions and a stopwatch to see the difference, then it >would seem that you are helping to make my point. Maybe the problenm is not that there is a difference but that it isn't noticeable at touring speeds. In other words, paddle A could be much less efficient than paddle B but because the power outputs are low we don't notice the differnec. Does this make sense? (SNIP) > >Have others had similar experiences, or do folks who use Greenland >paddles have difficulty in keeping up with their fellow paddlers? >Admittedly this is not a scientific experiment. But my point is >precisely that one would need a very carefully designed, well controlled >experiment to see any difference, because the differences are so small >(at typical touring speeds). Seems like this would be the case. Although it alos seems like one could tank test the blades to see how effective they were (much like I did some years back but with a better tank and better measurement devices. ) Perhaps the sum of best technique and best possible paddle could result in a rather large difference noticeable difference. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ . *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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