At 3:21 PM -0700 7/24/98, K. Whilden wrote: > >I think too little importance is placed on trial and error in kayak and >paddle design. Eskimos spent generation after generation of trial and >error in kayak and paddle design, and for them it was more than a hobby, >it was their livelihood. As far as I know, no current designer can >accurately predict all handling characteristics of a kayak with computer >programs alone. Current designers spend plenty of time testing their boats >on the water too. Not too many quantifiable facts there... > I think too much emphasis is placed on the experience of the Eskimos. Before you get too mad, I do think they did an excellent job evolving what is very likely the best boat and paddle for their purposes. However, they were living with a very different set of circumstances than the modern paddler. They were a stone age culture (accept for the last century or less), they lived where no trees grew and wood was very valuable. This is not to mention they were hunting, had gods to pacify and women to impress, paddled through pack-ice and ice flows, went out in all kinds of weather, etc. The Inuits needed a paddle that could be made with a sharpened rock, from a very limited resource, which had to survive hard use without breaking, could be used for silent stalking of prey and put aside while grabbing a spear, all while providing reasonable efficient propulsion. It is quite possible that they were willing to sacrifice propulsion efficiency in order to improve some other aspect of their needs. For example some people now like take-apart paddles even though they are heavier than one-piece. The ease of storage is worth the added weight. Others like green even though blue is obviously the superior color. Just because a tool was very efficient in meeting the varied needs of a subsistance hunter does not indicate much about its suitability for any other purpose. The characteristics useful to the modern paddler are different from the original Inuit. It is only logical that the tools used now are different. Modern modeling techniques may not be complete, but does not mean they should be discounted. Trial and error will always be an important part of kayak and paddle design, however since the kayak is a highly evolved design, the difference between one trial and another error is getting more difficult to quanitify by going out for a paddle. This is where modern analysis techniques are useful. Just because people want to use those tools does not mean they think the Eskimos were wrong, only that there may still be room for small improvements. If they try and find that the Eskimos had in fact developed the ultimate boat or paddle, it will be modern techniques that show it. Until that happens they won't take someone elses word for it. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks c/o Newfound Woodworks, 67 Danforth Brook Rd, Bristol, NH 03222 (603) 744-6872 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Nick said >I think too much emphasis is placed on the experience of the Eskimos. >Before you get too mad, I do think they did an excellent job evolving what >is very likely the best boat and paddle for their purposes. At least we agree on some thing However, they >were living with a very different set of circumstances than the modern >paddler. Lucky ducks , no jet ski's They were a stone age culture (accept for the last century or >less), they lived where no trees grew and wood was very valuable. This is >not to mention they were hunting, had gods to pacify and women to impress, durn I knew we had it wrong we try to pacify and impress women >paddled through pack-ice and ice flows, went out in all kinds of weather, >etc. I paddle while holding a glass of ice , does that count? > >The Inuits needed a paddle that could be made with a sharpened rock, from a >very limited resource, you mean Hank ( lightning paddles fame)doesn't use rocks to shape his paddles? Have you seen the drift wood logs 36 inches in diameter wash on shore?? sharpened rock then steel when white men came and they did not change the way they made things except quicker >which had to survive hard use without breaking, Still a factor >could be used for silent stalking of prey them ducks and gators are skittish today too and put aside while grabbing a >spear, all while providing reasonable efficient propulsion. can't think of anything to say. oh yea we have whales laying on the beach but we don't hunt them , there husbands and wifes would get upset It is quite >possible that they were willing to sacrifice propulsion efficiency in order >to improve some other aspect of their needs. true buuuttt they needed to travel long distances with out using all their energy ( so smart too) besides the british had not come along to tell them they were wrong for thousands of years yet. For example some people now >like take-apart paddles even though they are heavier than one-piece. The >ease of storage is worth the added weight. Yep Others like green even though >blue is obviously the superior color. your on a roll there, we totally agree on at least one thing > >Just because a tool was very efficient in meeting the varied needs of a >subsistance hunter does not indicate much about its suitability for any >other purpose. a gun works well for any shooting? why not a kayak and paddle The characteristics useful to the modern paddler are >different from the original Inuit. yea alright I only paddle for fun, the last thing I hunted was a camp site It is only logical that the tools used >now are different. no only modernized > >Modern modeling techniques may not be complete, but does not mean they >should be discounted. Trial and error will always be an important part of >kayak and paddle design, however since the kayak is a highly evolved >design, the difference between one trial and another error is getting more >difficult to quanitify by going out for a paddle. This is where modern >analysis techniques are useful. Just because people want to use those tools >does not mean they think the Eskimos were wrong, only that there may still >be room for small improvements. if it ain't broke don't fix it If they try and find that the Eskimos had >in fact developed the ultimate boat or paddle, it will be modern techniques >that show it. and the brits to disagree >Until that happens they won't take someone elses word for it. they still won't, they will say the testing was flawed. look at yall, you won't even admit the greenlanders had it right to start with Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:13 PM -0400 7/24/98, dldecker_at_mediaone.net wrote: >> >>Just because a tool was very efficient in meeting the varied needs of a >>subsistance hunter does not indicate much about its suitability for any >>other purpose. > > >a gun works well for any shooting? why not a kayak and paddle Not being a hunter I'm not sure of this but aren't different guns used for hunting ducks and Elk. Nobody ever suggested that there should be one kind of gun. Why should there be only one kind of paddle? Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks c/o Newfound Woodworks, 67 Danforth Brook Rd, Bristol, NH 03222 (603) 744-6872 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:39 PM 7/26/98 -0400, Nick Schade wrote: >At 10:13 PM -0400 7/24/98, dldecker_at_mediaone.net wrote: > >>> >>>Just because a tool was very efficient in meeting the varied needs of a >>>subsistance hunter does not indicate much about its suitability for any >>>other purpose. >> >> >>a gun works well for any shooting? why not a kayak and paddle > >Not being a hunter I'm not sure of this but aren't different guns used for >hunting ducks and Elk. Nobody ever suggested that there should be one kind >of gun. Why should there be only one kind of paddle? > > > >Nick Schade >Guillemot Kayaks > > > You don't play fair , you use to much common sense Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
All well and good, and I'm about to be bashed by the anti-blood sports league, but I prefer a hand made Osage Orange, yew, or Hickory long bow to a 30.06 for the minimal hunting I do/did. It's effective enough for my purposes. I won't go into the honoring the spirits of the game/water.. Wynne Americus, GA At 08:18 PM 7/24/98 -0400, Nick Schade wrote: > >I think too much emphasis is placed on the experience of the Eskimos. >Before you get too mad, I do think they did an excellent job evolving what >is very likely the best boat and paddle for their purposes. However, they >were living with a very different set of circumstances than the modern >paddler. They were a stone age culture (accept for the last century or >less), they lived where no trees grew and wood was very valuable. This is >not to mention they were hunting, had gods to pacify and women to impress, >paddled through pack-ice and ice flows, went out in all kinds of weather, >etc. > >The Inuits needed a paddle that could be made with a sharpened rock, from a >very limited resource, which had to survive hard use without breaking, >could be used for silent stalking of prey and put aside while grabbing a >spear, all while providing reasonable efficient propulsion. It is quite >possible that they were willing to sacrifice propulsion efficiency in order >to improve some other aspect of their needs. For example some people now >like take-apart paddles even though they are heavier than one-piece. The >ease of storage is worth the added weight. Others like green even though >blue is obviously the superior color. > >Just because a tool was very efficient in meeting the varied needs of a >subsistance hunter does not indicate much about its suitability for any >other purpose. The characteristics useful to the modern paddler are >different from the original Inuit. It is only logical that the tools used >now are different. > >Modern modeling techniques may not be complete, but does not mean they >should be discounted. Trial and error will always be an important part of >kayak and paddle design, however since the kayak is a highly evolved >design, the difference between one trial and another error is getting more >difficult to quanitify by going out for a paddle. This is where modern >analysis techniques are useful. Just because people want to use those tools >does not mean they think the Eskimos were wrong, only that there may still >be room for small improvements. If they try and find that the Eskimos had >in fact developed the ultimate boat or paddle, it will be modern techniques >that show it. Until that happens they won't take someone elses word for it. > > > >Nick Schade >Guillemot Kayaks >c/o Newfound Woodworks, 67 Danforth Brook Rd, Bristol, NH 03222 >(603) 744-6872 > >Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com >http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ > >>>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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