I meant to add something to what I submitted just a few minutes ago and following up more on the issue when to get the Coast Guard and other services out. My thought is that unless you are in a dicey situation with individuals hurt, equipment damaged (your kayak holed and sinking), that kind of stuff, you should not call for help. We should not be rescue-call happy. I am afraid as more people get VHF radios they will be tempted to call sooner than they may really need to. I see this coming with people who have strobes and are saying they will turn them on if they are a bit apprehensive in making a crossing where commercial traffic is moving through. Having signaling and communications devices are a two-edged sword in a sense. You may take extra risks relying on these devices to bail you out if things go wrong. Or if you are in a jam, you may press the panic button and seek help when other options are opened to you. I'll give an example of something that happened to two paddlers about a dozen years ago in NYC harbor. They were new to kayaking, had a brand new Klepper, throw it over the seawall at the Battery and paddled merrily along out toward the Atlantic not knowing that it was a favorable ebb that was moving them along and not their muscles. When they decided to go back, they still had the major force of the ebb stopping them almost cold. If they had had a VHF radio (few paddlers did back then), they might have called for help. Instead they did the smart thing. They figured what goes down must go up eventually. They waited in the lee of a pier or point of land for some change in the current and when it came, they got themselves back to Manhattan. Of course, we have a situation developing here that may also be happening elsewhere...unnecessary rescue calls by on-lookers with the omnipresent cellphone. At times when paddlers are practicing rolls and rescues in this area, joggers, strollers, bicyclists will, upon coming on to the scene, react hastely and call 911. This gets the harbor police and other rescue units out. It's nice to know people are watching out for each other :-). ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph wrote; >My thought is that unless you are in a dicey situation with individuals >hurt, equipment damaged (your kayak holed and sinking), that kind of >stuff, you should not call for help. We should not be rescue-call >happy. I am afraid as more people get VHF radios they will be tempted >to call sooner than they may really need to. I see this coming with >people who have strobes and are saying they will turn them on if they >are a bit apprehensive in making a crossing where commercial traffic is >moving through. Having signaling and communications devices are a >two-edged sword in a sense. You may take extra risks relying on these >devices to bail you out if things go wrong. Or if you are in a jam, you >may press the panic button and seek help when other options are opened >to you. As most people here know I am a strong advocate of non reliance on rescue and rescue gear and a strong advocate of staying out of trouble. Recently I attended a discussion group on "The Responsibilities of Government". In short it was a two hour whining session about how government should be responsible for everything. The education system was blamed for the problems of society and it was apparent that parental responsibility should end at conception. Highway deaths were blamed on poor roads and not enough enforcement of speed laws and that the only bad drivers were those who weren't there. The economy was the government's fault for not providing job training for unemployed and incentives for people to start businesses and that business was being stifled by high taxes. The environment was deteriorating because government wasn't doing enough to stop polluters yet it was felt government action was making it difficult for business to operate profitably due to increasingly complex legislation. Etc. Etc. Et nauseum cetera. More and more I am running into paddlers who think the Coast Guard should be a personal handmaiden there to clean up after they have made a mess and yet they would resent any effort to impose licensing or skill requirements. In short, be there to help but don't do anything that would cost me anything or make me actually learn anything about paddling. Makes me want to puke. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/Cheers, *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > > Ralph wrote; > > >My thought is that unless you are in a dicey situation with individuals > >hurt, equipment damaged (your kayak holed and sinking), that kind of > >stuff, you should not call for help. SNIPPED > As most people here know I am a strong advocate of non reliance on rescue > and rescue gear and a strong advocate of staying out of trouble. SNIPPED I had John very much in mind when I wrote what I submitted to Paddlewise but I didn't want to use his name in vain. :-) I feel strongly about not asking for help and certainly staying out of harm's way in the first place if it can be helped. On a personal note, I saw it in my father (I don't want to get into this beyond saying that his death came partly as a result of his not seeking help) and now in my son, who has starved and froze rather than rely on others. It may be in the blood or maybe just Latin pride and stubbornness. I think that somewhere lost in the expansion of seakayaking in the last decade has been the spirit of self-reliance many earlier devotees brought with them to this chosen pursuit. When in a jam, their first thought was how to work themselves out of it, often by doing absolutely nothing but rather taking a deep breath and assessing their predicament and their range of choices before taking any action. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
This whole thing brings to mind a program I saw on the history channel a while back. There was a freighter foundering somewhere in the North Atlantic, back in the 30's or 40's I believe. The Captain refused to be rescued when another ship arrived and took the rest of the crew back to shore. He was going to stay with his listing ship until it either sank (which it was in grave danger of) or it was towed to safety. So he stayed on, alone, after everyone else left. A tug was sent out, and the attempt to tow the ship failed several times, during which (I forget exactly how) one of the tug crewmembers ended up in the listing ship with the Captain for a number of very rough stormy days. More ships were sent out into the storm to rescue the sinking one, one of which made another attempt to tow it back in. All the while, the Captain steadfastly refused to give up his ship and be rescued. As it turned out, the ship eventually sank anyway, the Captain did jump off and was finally rescued, and he received a hero's welcome when he returned to the mainland. The gallant Captain who would not give up his ship. Am I the only one who thinks that he was a fool, who needlessly put the lives of many other people at risk by declining rescue when the opportunity first arose? Wayne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
From: wayne steffens <wsteffen_at_skypoint.com> > This whole thing brings to mind a program I saw on the history channel a > while back. There was a freighter foundering somewhere in the North > Atlantic, back in the 30's or 40's I believe. The Captain refused to be > rescued when another ship arrived and took the rest of the crew back to > shore. Sounds a bit like the "Flying Enterprise", happened about the mid-'50s as far as I remember. She was probably a Liberty ship. Cargo was ore? and had shifted. Alex -- ---------------------------------------------------- Alex Ferguson a.ferguson_at_chem.canterbury.ac.nz Electronics Workshop, Chem Dept, Univ of Canterbury Christchurch, New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
My only thought is the Coast Guard would much rather do rescues than body recoveries. Yes to self reliance, skills, equipment, etc. But if they are available and there is a probable need, call. It may be a false alarm, but what if it isn't. >Ralph wrote; > > >>My thought is that unless you are in a dicey situation with individuals >>hurt, equipment damaged (your kayak holed and sinking), that kind of >>stuff, you should not call for help. We should not be rescue-call >>happy. I am afraid as more people get VHF radios they will be tempted >>to call sooner than they may really need to. I see this coming with >>people who have strobes and are saying they will turn them on if they >>are a bit apprehensive in making a crossing where commercial traffic is >>moving through. Having signaling and communications devices are a >>two-edged sword in a sense. You may take extra risks relying on these >>devices to bail you out if things go wrong. Or if you are in a jam, you >>may press the panic button and seek help when other options are opened >>to you. > > ,,, (o o) ==================oOO--(_)--OOo========================== Bob Washburn whiterabbit_at_iw.edwpub.com or rwashbu_at_siue.edu The only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. ========================================================= *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Bob Washburn wrote: > > My only thought is the Coast Guard would much rather do rescues than body > recoveries. Yes to self reliance, skills, equipment, etc. But if they are > available and there is a probable need, call. It may be a false alarm, but > what if it isn't. > >Ralph wrote: > > > >>My thought is that unless you are in a dicey situation with individuals > >>hurt, equipment damaged (your kayak holed and sinking), that kind of > >>stuff, you should not call for help. We should not be rescue-call > >>happy. I am afraid as more people get VHF radios they will be tempted > >>to call sooner than they may really need to. [snip] Bob summarizes my modus operandi. In cold water, if you wait to call, until you are SURE you (or others) need a rescue, the rescue may come too late. In my experience, monitoring calls around here, the CG SAR coordinators are very good at assessing the degree of emergency in a situation, and do not willy-nilly send the helo. However, the CG will tell you they greatly prefer to get a call EARLY in an emergent situation, before things are truly desperate. Talk is cheap. That said, my group DECLINED to file a formal float plan with the Canadian CG in the Charlottes this summer. Why? Because we did not want the CG to go looking for us if we were a day late on a 15-day trip, owing to slowness of travel (or, whatever). There were enough other boats around to respond to a radioed Mayday call that if we needed help, it would have been forthcoming quickly. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I don't recall the exact quote, but a famous test pilot was once asked what he would do in a situation where he had 10 seconds to deal with an major emergency. His response; "I would use 9 seconds to THINK and 1 second to ACT!" When I am making a decision that I cannot reverse, I want to consider my options as well and deeply as possible first. When I only get one chance to act I want that act to be the best possible one. OTOH In situations where there is time (and a margin of safety) it may be better to simply try several different things and see what works best. michael rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > When in a jam, their first > thought was how to work themselves out of it, often by doing absolutely > nothing but rather taking a deep breath and assessing their predicament > and their range of choices before taking any action. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
1. Could salvage law have anything to do with it? E.g., if the captain abandoned the boat entirely, would this make it more costly for the owners to get it and its cargo back from the salvagers if they had been able to tow it to safety? I have no idea about what the law is, and would be interested to hear from someone who does? 2. Did his staying aboard have any effect upon the efforts by others to save the ship and cargo, or would they have done so anyway even if he was not on board? Richard Culpeper www.geocities.com/~culpeper ---------- > From: wayne steffens <wsteffen_at_skypoint.com> --snip-- > The Captain refused to be > rescued when another ship arrived and took the rest of the crew back to > shore. He was going to stay with his listing ship until it either sank > (which it was in grave danger of) or it was towed to safety. --snip-- > Am I the only one who thinks that he was a fool, who needlessly put the > lives of many other people at risk by declining rescue when the opportunity > first arose? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 01:42 PM 9/27/98 -0400, Richard Culpeper wrote: >1. Could salvage law have anything to do with it? E.g., if the captain >abandoned the boat entirely, would this make it more costly for the owners >to get it and its cargo back from the salvagers if they had been able to >tow it to safety? I have no idea about what the law is, and would be >interested to hear from someone who does? Yes, I would too as I know little about that type of thing. From my (admittedly inexperienced) vantage point, I saw a ship that was listing badly and was destined to sink anyway in the storm that raged for many days. My assumption (possibly incorrect?) is that nobody would have attempted (repeatedly) to rescue the ship in those condition if there wasnt a human onboard. If I am wrong in that assumption, then I am wrong about the assumption that he needlessly put many other lives at risk. Wayne > >2. Did his staying aboard have any effect upon the efforts by others to >save the ship and cargo, or would they have done so anyway even if he was >not on board? > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Wayne wrote; > This whole thing brings to mind a program I saw on the history channel a >while back. There was a freighter foundering somewhere in the North >Atlantic, back in the 30's or 40's I believe. The Captain refused to be >rescued when another ship arrived and took the rest of the crew back to >shore. He was going to stay with his listing ship until it either sank >(which it was in grave danger of) or it was towed to safety. So he stayed >on, alone, after everyone else left. (SNIP) >Am I the only one who thinks that he was a fool, who needlessly put the >lives of many other people at risk by declining rescue when the opportunity >first arose? I suspect this may have been Captain Kurt Carlson and I think it may have been in the fifties. The tradition among seafarers to not give up the ship until the last possible moment stems from salvage laws. An abandoned ship belongs to the salvager. Carlson was doing his duty. Foolish? Perhaps in the context of personal risk but staying with the ship was consistent with the highest traditions of the sea. I firmly believe the tradition valid for those who work on the sea. There is a brotherhood of the sea for those who must face adversity without option just as there is a brotherhood for those at war. Who would ever undertake these roles knowing it was every man or woman for himself? I have much different feelings about those who go to sea for fun. The recreational paddler or sailor has options unavailable to the professional. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:21 PM 9/30/98 -0400, John Winters wrote: >I suspect this may have been Captain Kurt Carlson and I think it may have >been in the >fifties. Yes, I belive it was Capt. Carlson and "The Flying Enterprise" If what you say is true, and I have no reason to believe it isnt, the program did not do a very good job of explaining the situation(although I only caught the last 2/3 of the show). The way it was presented made it seem that he went well above and beyond what duty or sanity would have dictated. My apologies to the Captain. The only reason I brought it up was to make the distinction between potentially life-saving decisions involving only one's self, and those involving others. Personally, I wouldnt call help for myself unless I had exhausted all other possibilities and was faced with certain death or equally unpleasant circumstances. Then I wouldnt hesitate to call. And I dont allow cell phones within 50 feet of my kayak or backpack.<G> Regarding the situation that I found myself in, I have since found out that although both persons were wearing drysuits, one had no insulation underneath! So a seemingly innocuous situation could easily have developed into a tragedy. Only days before, someone nearly died after only 35 minutes in the water. Of course its not my responsibility to make sure that other people use better judgement, but I would feel resposible anyway if I could have done something to help. Also, the other person involved has told me that he wouldnt want help called for him under any almost any circumstance. Thats fine, but he wasnt alone out there. I agreed never to call help for him unless I changed my mind and decided to do so. As he has never made much effort to learn rough water boat handling skills, I wouldnt feel the slightest bit guilty. I'd rather have him be alive and pissed off, than be pissed off at myself for the rest of my life. I'm sure some people could do it with a clean conscience but I'm not one of them. I suppose if wants to kill himself afterwards thats his business, but I'm not going to help. Wayne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John: 1. Do you believe the tradition of staying with the ship until the last possible moment to be valid when there are no passengers or crew remaining, and only the cargo and ship itself to be saved? In short, why should someone put his or her life at risk for property, particularly when ship owners are notorious for poor maintenance of cargo vessels. 2. If one is to argue that a Captain and minimal crew should remain on board in the event that the emergency may abate and they may then be able at that time to prevent a wreck or a hazard to shipping, is this still valid when they could re-board by helicopter? Richard Culpeper www.geocities.com/~culpeper ---------- > From: John Winters <735769_at_ican.net> > The tradition among seafarers to not give up the ship until the last > possible moment stems from salvage laws. An abandoned ship > belongs to the salvager. Carlson was doing his duty. Foolish? Perhaps in > the context of personal risk but staying with the ship was consistent with > the highest traditions of the sea. > > I firmly believe the tradition valid for those who work on the sea. There > is a brotherhood of the sea for those who must face adversity without > option just as there is a brotherhood for those at war. Who would ever > undertake these roles knowing it was every man or woman for himself? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Wayne wrote; (SNIP) >Personally, I wouldnt call help for myself unless I had >exhausted all other possibilities and was faced with certain death or >equally unpleasant circumstances. Then I wouldnt hesitate to call. And I >dont allow cell phones within 50 feet of my kayak or backpack.<G> You and me both. (SNIP) >. As he has never made >much effort to learn rough water boat handling skills, I wouldnt feel the >slightest bit guilty. I'd rather have him be alive and pissed off, than be >pissed off at myself for the rest of my life. I'm sure some people could do >it with a clean conscience but I'm not one of them. I suppose if wants to >kill himself afterwards thats his business, but I'm not going to help. So long as one isn't risking his own life to rescue one of these twits then I agree that there is a moral obligation to rescue a person in dire straits. Otherwise, I think you are a hell of a lot more valuable than your friend if only because you have demonstrated a degree of personal responsibility. One does have to be cautious. Suicide is a personal thing and I wouldn't want to be interrupted. :-) Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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