K. Whilden wrote (in another context): >The Coho is one of the >smoothest rough water boats I have ever paddled, and I expect the Tern >will be similar. I also expect the Tern to have better performance while >surfing wind waves and to hold an edge better in following seas. The hard >edge will probably make it less forgiving than the Coho, but probably not >significant for a good paddler. IMO performance is more important than >forgiveness, and in general a twitchier boat only feels twitchy for a >short while until skills grow to accomodate the boat. What exactly do you mean by performance of a sea kayak in following seas? Is it just speed down weather? If so, how would you measure it? Isn't ease of handling while surfing wind waves the same thing as "forgiveness"? When you say that the Coho is smooth in rough water, isn't it forgiveness you are talking about, and isn't that good? Is there any advantage to twitchiness per se? Could you not have both good and poor performing twitchy boats? Seeking kayak wisdom. Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Gerald Foodman wrote: > > K. Whilden wrote (in another context): > >The Coho is one of the > >smoothest rough water boats I have ever paddled, and I expect the Tern > >will be similar. I also expect the Tern to have better performance while > >surfing wind waves and to hold an edge better in following seas. The hard > >edge will probably make it less forgiving than the Coho, but probably not > >significant for a good paddler. IMO performance is more important than > >forgiveness, and in general a twitchier boat only feels twitchy for a > >short while until skills grow to accomodate the boat. > > What exactly do you mean by performance of a sea kayak in following seas? > Is it just speed down weather? If so, how would you measure it? Isn't > ease of handling while surfing wind waves the same thing as "forgiveness"? > When you say that the Coho is smooth in rough water, isn't it forgiveness > you are talking about, and isn't that good? Is there any advantage to > twitchiness per se? Could you not have both good and poor performing > twitchy boats? Not sure I'm the one to help out here, but when I read Kevin's post, I felt I knew what he meant. I've got a Pygmy Osprey STd, which has a multi-chine hull with a profile similar to that of the Coho. (It is a foot and a half shorter, LOA, so it is a different boat.) *Depending on how I have it loaded* (nose-down vs. tail-down) it is either "smooth" or "twitchy" in a following sea. When it's twitchy, it seems to "hunt" for a stable lean angle -- and is not comfortable dead flat to the water. So, it twitches my butt back and forth between a slight left lean and a slight right lean, being more comfortable just to the left or just to the right. Is that kinda what you meant, Kevin? Before I got used to that, I felt mighty nervous in that boat in following seas. Now, I just push it either left or right, and brace/rudder it where I want it to go. Feels good, now. I have another boat (we call it "the cargo barge," 'cause it's huge), which is so lethargic in a following sea I guess you could think of it as the ultimate forgiver. It mushes around in a following sea, and never twitches. It is sort of a dog, and not a lot of fun, unless the swell gets pretty big, when Dave the paddler turns into an even bigger chicken! Well, Jerry, I don't know if the above helps. Maybe not. Now I've introduced animal comparisons, and all we had before was twitch and forgive! Sorry ... -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry wrote in response to Kevin; (SNIP) > >What exactly do you mean by performance of a sea kayak in following seas? >Is it just speed down weather? If so, how would you measure it? Isn't >ease of handling while surfing wind waves the same thing as "forgiveness"? >When you say that the Coho is smooth in rough water, isn't it forgiveness >you are talking about, and isn't that good? Is there any advantage to >twitchiness per se? Could you not have both good and poor performing >twitchy boats? >From a design standpoint controllability is the desired feature. By this I mean that the boat should be able to do what the paddler wants it to do. For some people this might mean responsiveness to control strokes, the ability to surf at high speed or some other combination of characteristics. On the other hand another person might want a forgiving boat that will behave itself even when the paddler is less than alert. The type of boat depends upon ones objectives. So, controllability can be active or passive in nature. Were I making a long open water crossing a boat that could take care of itself even when I was tired or stupid might be best. If I am playing along the coast a boat that responds to every lean or stroke might be more fun and, consequently, "better". Jerry asked how one measures this ability. Directional stability is quantified by something called a profile coefficient. The tendency to nose dive is measured by superimposing the boat over waves of various heights and steepness. The ability to surf can be quantified by using some of the planing boat formulas for dynamic lift. I am not sure any of this information clearly shows that a boat will be good or bad but it can provide a guide in the design stages to help the designer keep on target. Unlike ships, kayak performance is highly dependent upon the operator and one person's "really fun boat: is anothers abomination. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry, While paddling following seas, kayaks have the most difficulty tracking, and also have a tendency to broach when surfing. Hard chines really help improve tracking and control broaching because the chine grips the water in the wave face better than a rounded bottom. Rudders do literally nothing in these condition beause they are literally out of the water a lot of the time when the waves reach even a medium height. Skegs work better than rudders beause they are further from the end of the boat that is lifted up. For beginning to intermediate paddles, hard edges have a tendency to "catch" water more furing turns and in beam seas, and therefore increase the likely hood of capsize. For an expert, this is not a problem at all. Also, I think the Tern has less initial stability than the Coho, which combined with problem above is what I called "twitchiness". Of course twitchiness can be a benefit to a beginner/intermediate who is keen to hone his/her skills -- this combination often produces what I call "inverted positive feedback". Forgiveness is the opposite of twitchiness in my book, which means that I think the Coho is very forgiving to lack of expert level skill in rough water. This sacrifices a little bit of high performance in surfing that an expert could take advantage of with the Tern, but even so, the Coho is still in the upper echelon of performance compared to most sea kayaks. I define Performance as how responsive to leans and rudder strokes a kayak is when surfing a wave compared to my flat bottomed whitewater kayak. Yes, this is a tough scale of measure, and it basically dooms me to some measure of disappointment, but at least I haven't compromised my standards. :) Regardless, surfing any wave in any kind of kayak is the ultimate expression of personal freedom and joy... at least to me. Any "twitchy" boat that weathercocks is a poorly performing boat. Well, I hope that clears things up. Cheers, Kevin On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Gerald Foodman wrote: > K. Whilden wrote (in another context): > >The Coho is one of the > >smoothest rough water boats I have ever paddled, and I expect the Tern > >will be similar. I also expect the Tern to have better performance while > >surfing wind waves and to hold an edge better in following seas. The hard > >edge will probably make it less forgiving than the Coho, but probably not > >significant for a good paddler. IMO performance is more important than > >forgiveness, and in general a twitchier boat only feels twitchy for a > >short while until skills grow to accomodate the boat. > > What exactly do you mean by performance of a sea kayak in following seas? > Is it just speed down weather? If so, how would you measure it? Isn't > ease of handling while surfing wind waves the same thing as "forgiveness"? > When you say that the Coho is smooth in rough water, isn't it forgiveness > you are talking about, and isn't that good? Is there any advantage to > twitchiness per se? Could you not have both good and poor performing > twitchy boats? > > Seeking kayak wisdom. > > Jerry > > > > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Kevin wrote; >While paddling following seas, kayaks have the most difficulty tracking, >and also have a tendency to broach when surfing. Hard chines really help >improve tracking and control broaching because the chine grips the water >in the wave face better than a rounded bottom. This does not seem to be a universal rule since many wave skis are round bottom and surf extraordinarily well. Some hard chined boats are positively dangerous when surfing. In short, it is not whether a boat has chines or not that defines how it handles but how it handles that defines how it handles. >Rudders do literally >nothing in these condition because they are literally out of the water a >lot of the time when the waves reach even a medium height. Skegs work >better than rudders beause they are further from the end of the boat that >is lifted up. There are some boats where this is not the case. Particularly shorter boats. I think the Kiwis and Aussies have good experience with boats with rudders in rough conditions. Of course, having a rudder does not mean it is the only way to steer the boat. leans and control strokes can be used to augment the rudder and vice versa. > >For beginning to intermediate paddles, hard edges have a tendency to >"catch" water more furing turns and in beam seas, and therefore increase >the likely hood of capsize. For an expert, this is not a problem at all. >Also, I think the Tern has less initial stability than the Coho, which >combined with problem above is what I called "twitchiness". Of course >twitchiness can be a benefit to a beginner/intermediate who is keen to >hone his/her skills -- this combination often produces what I call >"inverted positive feedback". This too may vary with boat design. Boats are systems and rarely does one feature cause a result that cannot be compensated for somewhere else. For instance, one can achieve directional stability with skegs, rudders, low Block coefficients, narrow waterline beam, and large negative profile coefficient values and any combination of the lot. > >Forgiveness is the opposite of twitchiness in my book, which means that I >think the Coho is very forgiving to lack of expert level skill in rough >water. This sacrifices a little bit of high performance in surfing that an >expert could take advantage of with the Tern, but even so, the Coho is >still in the upper echelon of performance compared to most sea kayaks. This is an example of why controllability seems to be a better word to use since my experience suggest that many forgiving boats are quite controllable in surfing conditions. I can think of no reason why controllability and a forgiving nature are mutually exclusive even thought that may be the case for some boats. I know this sounds like nit picking but absolute statements about what features do what and when can be highly misleading. What Kevin says may be true (and I suspect are true) about the boats he has paddled but they may not apply to all boats. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, John Winters wrote: <<snipped lots of comments about the seeming absolute nature of my statements>> > > I know this sounds like nit picking but absolute statements about what > features do what and when can be highly misleading. What Kevin says may be > true (and I suspect are true) about the boats he has paddled but they may > not apply to all boats. > Hi John, Thanks for making this point, as you are absolutely correct. My comments about the general nature of boat design are not meant to be taken as absolute, set-in-concrete statements. Rather, my comments are observations of trends that I see in designs, which given the complex nature of designing surface watercraft, is about the best that anyone can do. Sometimes my enthusiasm gets the best of me, and I don't make this concept explicit -- this is the way that my direct manner of communicating often gets me in trouble :). However in some cases, observations of trends can be a very powerful method of understanding. One other dislclaimer that you brought up, is that I have not paddled all of the boats in the world in all conditions, or even a significant fraction, so I could very possibly have missed some notable exceptions to trends that I have seen -- a good point that hopefully everyone realizes intuitively. -- Kevin > Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered > Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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