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From: Frank Lucian <fwl_at_webtv.net>
subject: [Paddlewise] ACA certification (was: BASK&clubs/New Cert Concept)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 21:18:28 -0700 (PDT)
Some of the posts regarding ACA
certification were forwarded to John Lull,
an ACA Instructor Trainer. He asked me
to post the following response for him:


Julio recently posted a statement regarding ACA Certification
requirements that was totally incorrect. He stated that the ACA does not
require an Eskimo roll, knowledge of weather, or experience in rough
water for instructor certification. 
The fact is instructor candidates are required to have a strong Eskimo
roll, competence in surf, rough water, and tide rips, a good working
knowledge of navigation and weather conditons, and technical
proficiencey with strokes and rescues BEFORE they present themselves for
certification. The certification process is focused on the ability to
teach kayaking skills; instructors have to be skilled paddlers first. 
As an Instructor Trainer for several years, I have never certified
anyone who didn't demonstrate all the above skills. 
I'm totally mystified about where Julio got his information. My
recommendation to everyone is not to jump to any conclusions regarding
ACA certification until you have investigated it for yourself. 
In another message, someone described ACA certification as too "wimpy."
I challenge anyone who believes this to go through the program with me.
I consider kayak surfing a very basic sea kayaking skill right down
there with the Eskimo roll. Sea kayaking instructors should have this
stuff mastered." 
       John Lull, ACA Instructor Trainer 

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From: Julio MacWilliams <juliom_at_cisco.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] ACA certification (was: BASK&clubs/New Cert Concept)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:26:03 -0700 (PDT)
Frank,

Of course CCK and Eskape! have excellent instructor certification
programs. In fact, I have taken classes from both, and am planning
to take the ACA exam with CCK. I recommend both schools very strongly,
and I will forward the contact information to whoever wants it.

And yes, a good roll is required.

The point of the discussion is that there are inconsistencies 
in the certification exams throught the country, which is supported
by the fact that there are certified instructors who do not have
a reliable roll.

Now, let us talk about list ethics. The fact that you have gotten
me in trouble by forwarding PARTS of a discussion out of context
to people I happen to know personally makes me very furious.

I just hope that some day soon I meet you personally at BASK and
find out that you are not really as mean as you appear to be.

- Julio 

> 
> Some of the posts regarding ACA
> certification were forwarded to John Lull,
> an ACA Instructor Trainer. He asked me
> to post the following response for him:
> 
> 
> Julio recently posted a statement regarding ACA Certification
> requirements that was totally incorrect. He stated that the ACA does not
> require an Eskimo roll, knowledge of weather, or experience in rough
> water for instructor certification. 
> The fact is instructor candidates are required to have a strong Eskimo
> roll, competence in surf, rough water, and tide rips, a good working
> knowledge of navigation and weather conditons, and technical
> proficiencey with strokes and rescues BEFORE they present themselves for
> certification. The certification process is focused on the ability to
> teach kayaking skills; instructors have to be skilled paddlers first. 
> As an Instructor Trainer for several years, I have never certified
> anyone who didn't demonstrate all the above skills. 
> I'm totally mystified about where Julio got his information. My
> recommendation to everyone is not to jump to any conclusions regarding
> ACA certification until you have investigated it for yourself. 
> In another message, someone described ACA certification as too "wimpy."
> I challenge anyone who believes this to go through the program with me.
> I consider kayak surfing a very basic sea kayaking skill right down
> there with the Eskimo roll. Sea kayaking instructors should have this
> stuff mastered." 
>        John Lull, ACA Instructor Trainer 
> 
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> ***************************************************************************
> 
> 

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From: Frank Lucian <fwl_at_webtv.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] ACA certification (was: BASK&clubs/New Cert Concept)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 06:20:51 -0700 (PDT)
>Julio wrote:
>The fact that you have gotten me in
>trouble by forwarding PARTS of a
>discussion out of context to people I
>happen to know personally makes me
>very furious.

I apologize, Julio, if I got you in trouble or made you furious. That
was not my intention. Actually, I did not forward anything to John Lull
(who replied about the ACA certification requirements). I did send
several messages (two of which gave what I thought was a totally false
description of the ACA cert program) to a friend, who is an ACA
instructor. My only intention was for my friend to provide subscribers
with a different perspective on the ACA program. My friend then
forwarded them to John and eventually I was asked to post his reply (I
think he tried to post himself but had trouble as he was just
subscribing).

I certainly didn't mean to make anyone furious and didn't realize
forwarding a message to someone off list was bad netiquette. I enjoy
reading PW (and I didn't mean to start one of those discussions that
make me hate to try to read rec.boats.paddle). 

I should mention that I'm not affiliated with the ACA (other than when
someone made me send them money once when I took a class - for insurance
purposes I was told). I have actually been a little more impressed with
the BCU. But, I thought the readers of this list deserved to consider
another view of the ACA. As it turns out, that view happened to come
from one of their top trainers. If it was improper of me to have
initiated this response, I apologize. 

Frank
(returning to lurking mode - it's more fun and far less time consuming)

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From: <dldecker_at_mediaone.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] ACA certification (was: BASK&clubs/New CertConcept)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 18:22:39 -0400
At 06:20 AM 10/7/98 -0700, Frank Lucian wrote:
>>Julio wrote:
>>The fact that you have gotten me in
>>trouble by forwarding PARTS of a
>>discussion out of context to people I
>>happen to know personally makes me
>>very furious.
>
>I apologize, Julio, if I got you in trouble or made you furious. That
>was not my intention. Actually, I did not forward anything to John Lull
>(who replied about the ACA certification requirements). I did send
>several messages (two of which gave what I thought was a totally false
>description of the ACA cert program) to a friend, who is an ACA
>instructor. My only intention was for my friend to provide subscribers
>with a different perspective on the ACA program. My friend then
>forwarded them to John and eventually I was asked to post his reply (I
>think he tried to post himself but had trouble as he was just
>subscribing).
>
>Frank


 I think people forget that this list is world wide and anything you say can 
be read by many people. You are responsible for what you say.


Dana
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