John Winters wrote: > >On another note, Ari mentioned capsizing his Nordkapp while learning to >paddle it. I find it interesting that capsizing seems to be an integral >part in learning how to paddle a boat that is reputed to be so seaworthy. >It would be interesting to start another thread that defines what >characteristics a high performance sea kayak would possess. I wonder if >ease of capsize is one of them and wonder if the rest cannot be achieved >with more stable boats. > Ari Saarto wrote: >Again: I do think that "safe", stabile wider kayaks with >more flat bottom can actually become a risk. One starts to >learn with them and finally learning of some basic skills >might become more difficult. ..... >High performance? To me it is safety combined to >sensivity. A long expedition can be exhausting [which can >be a safety problem ;-)] if your kayak resembles >kitchen-sink... A tireless expert like Paul Caffyn in his Australian/Nordkapp circumnavigation is not likely to capsize in any boat. But is not helpful to compare narrow tippy boats only with wide kayaks resembling a kitchen sink, as Ari does. There are plenty of 22" or 23" beam kayaks that are quite stable and comfortable, even in rough conditions. Extra stability is not detrimental unless the boat is so wide that you don't have a good grip on your boat with your knees and hips, or that it makes leaning slow or difficult. I don't believe that any 22" or 23" boat is that stable. Also, boats of that width are not more difficult to roll than the very tippy ones. For a non expert but competent paddler who likes to go out in moderately rough, but not awful, conditions the extra stability brings higher performance in the following sense: I am far more confident in paddling these moderately rough conditions in my stable 22 incher than in some of the tippier boats I have tried. I can surf, lean confidently, and remain in control, instead of worrying about staying upright. In the tippy boat I stay inside the jetty, i.e., I get less performance out of it. Also, very important for us older paddlers is pee performance. Can you remove the sprayskirt of your tippy boat in choppy conditions to do your business? It is easier to brace with the paddle in your hand than with that other thing. Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Gerald Foodman wrote: > Extra stability is > not detrimental unless the boat is so wide that you don't have a good grip > on your boat with your knees and hips, or that it makes leaning slow or > difficult. That is a good point. I paddle mainly folding kayaks, particularly singles. Their width varies from 25 inches to about 29 inches. But most of them have their width high up where the sponsons are and are actually much narrower at the water line. Moreover, the way the cockpit is configured, most paddlers have lots of control of the boat with their knees. Take for example the Nautraid Raid 1 which I now own. It is about 15.5 feet long and 29 inches wide. But its cockpit rim is smaller than many hardshells. Moreover, your knees are in contact with ribs and deck. The sponsons are small and the boat's waterline width is around 23 inches and it leans amazingly easily. All my turns and manuevering is via lean, quite often quite drastic as the sponsons are very forgiving of holding an extreme lean. I am now trying to get the company to send me a seat from another model which has inflatable hip pads built in, which would give me even more contact with the boat. > Also, very important for us older paddlers is pee performance. Can you > remove the sprayskirt of your tippy boat in choppy conditions to do your > business? It is easier to brace with the paddle in your hand than with that > other thing. Here is where the folding singles come into their own. They are virtually floating port-a-sans (have I opened myself up here to derogatory comments by some wags? :-)). You don't need to steady yourself with a brace stroke. It is safe to put your paddle down and deal with business. I carry a pee bottle and use it all the time. I have answered that call of nature under chop conditions in which people around me in hard shells were using bracing strokes to steady themselves without peeing. I have never had a need to crap while on the water, but I think it could be done under most situations, and again without rafting up with a reluctant partner or figuring out how to hold a paddle and paddle float, the container, toilet paper, etc. Stability that doesn't drastically affect other aspects of paddling should not be looked down on. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hello you fellow paddlewisers again! On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Gerald Foodman wrote: > to compare narrow tippy boats only with wide kayaks resembling a kitchen > sink, as Ari does. There are plenty of 22" or 23" beam kayaks that are > quite stable and comfortable, even in rough conditions. Extra stability is > not detrimental unless the boat is so wide... > (snip) > For a non expert but competent paddler who likes to go out in moderately > rough, but not awful, conditions the extra stability brings higher > performance in the following sense: I am far more confident in paddling > these moderately rough conditions in my stable 22 incher than in some of the > tippier boats I have tried. I can surf, lean confidently, and remain in > control, instead of worrying about staying upright. In the tippy boat I > stay inside the jetty, i.e., I get less performance out of it. > > Also, very important for us older paddlers is pee performance. Can you > remove the sprayskirt of your tippy boat in choppy conditions to do your > business? It is easier to brace with the paddle in your hand than with that > other thing. Gerald, thanks for your comments! Now, what is really "tippiness"? Is it a feeling of unstability (when peeing as for an example ;-) or are we really talking about possibility to capsize? To me essential things are, besides the width, shape of the bottom combined to kayakers weight.. a more rounded bottom feels tippier than a flat bottom but makes leaning easier. My point was that learning might become more challenging and one might get more and better results if the kayak has more secondary stability. Summer ´97 I kayaked at sea more than 600 miles using my double and an old P&H Fjord, which were both much wider than my Nordkapp. And had much more flatter bottom. My capsizing in May was a combination of unfamiliarity (differently designeded and narrower kayak) and t r u s t i n g t o o m u c h to the stability in general - too much flat bottomed kayaks with too much primary stability.. My comment about kitchen sinks was meant to raise the subject of personal choice and fitness on surface again. I do miss sometimes the much more stronger feeling of stability in P&H Fjord when kayaking in following seas, but anyhow, Nordkapp did everything nice on last Thursday when I was returning from my overnight trip (check my other mail on list about Winter). I had to paddle through some breaking waves in shallow waters after leaving the island and trying to enter a channel safely. The S - SE wind was again blowing behind, from the open sea. Hmm - I have made my choice, but it seems reasonable to believe that I am not trying to do the same at the age of 50, 60 or 70 without checking if some other kayak might then fit my needs better. Safe paddling to all. Ari *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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