>On Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 09:34:50AM -0400, KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: >> There is no way you can actually know that you would not have survived >> without a pfd unless you were not wearing one and drowned. In which case there >> is no way you would actually know that you would have survived had you been >> wearing one :-) > Actually, I think there are situations that can support the idea that life jackets or PFDs increase survival rates. Consider sinking ships. Probably the most "scientific" examples would be torpedoed or bombed warships (I'm thinking WWII). You have a regrettably large "sample size" and a reasonably homogenous group of subjects (young, male, fit) in the same water conditions for whatever time until rescue arrives. Though I can't quote statistics, my impression has always been that those with even the primitive kapok-filled life jackets of the era, or even a bit of flotsam to cling to, survived at a much higher rate than their unsupported companions. Comments and corrections welcome. Cheers, Philip T. **************************************** Mountain Equipment Co-op 1655 West 3rd Avenue, Vancouver, BC, Canada V6J 1K1 Tel: 640-732-1989 Fax: 604-731-6483 email: pid_at_mec.ca Visit our website at: http://www.mec.ca ***************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Product Information Department wrote: > >On Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 09:34:50AM -0400, KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > >> There is no way you can actually know that you would not have survived > >> without a pfd unless you were not wearing one and drowned. In which case > there > >> is no way you would actually know that you would have survived had you been > >> wearing one :-) > > > > Actually, I think there are situations that can support the idea that life > jackets or PFDs increase survival rates. Consider sinking ships. Probably > the most "scientific" examples would be torpedoed or bombed warships (I'm > thinking WWII). You have a regrettably large "sample size" and a reasonably > homogenous group of subjects (young, male, fit) in the same water > conditions for whatever time until rescue arrives. Though I can't quote > statistics, my impression has always been that those with even the > primitive kapok-filled life jackets of the era, or even a bit of flotsam to > cling to, survived at a much higher rate than their unsupported companions. > Comments and corrections welcome. > > > Cheers, > > Philip T. yes philip, that is the general idea. when i was in the navy, the joke was, that you are never more than 3-5 miles from land, unfortunately, it's straight down!! this was also the premis that started Outward Bound in the USA, when researchers found the young men were dying faster than the older men. the conclusion was rather interesting ;-) now, would i have died in this next situation, i don't know... earlier this year i was paddling on the poudre river, which was probably about 40oF [~5oC] and my paddle broke. i only had to swim my boat 50 ft to the shore, even with two friends helping, i almost didn't make it before the big rapid. had i left my boat and gear, i could have made it no problem, but the extra resistance of the boat kept me in the cold water an extra few minutes, and by the time i got to the shore, i could barely move, i was so numb. -- scenerio 2, every year for the past 5 years, the RMCC has a safety fair, where participants learn various safety/rescue techniques. one of the last things we've done [the first few years] was had someone paddle out on the lake [last weekend of april] about 100yds[meters] and then capsize. they got the chance to see how weel their gear worked, and then other participants would paddle out and do a rescue. this sheds lots of light on the situation. most swimmers were surprised they could barely hang on to the back of a boat towing them, let alone swim that 100 yards!! no life jacket/pfd? they would have drowned. cause of death wouldn't have been "not wearing a PFD" but that would have been one of the top factors. i've "played" the swimmer numerous times, in water that had ice floating on top in places... and that 50/50 rule always pops into my head: RULES OF 50 1.- An average adult person has a 50/50 chance of surviving a 50 yard swim in 50 degree F. water. 2.- A 50 year old person in 50 degree F water has a 50/50 chance of surviving for 50 minutes if you like, here's another hypothermia page, mine, which takes Fern Usen's page, and now has html markup, for indexing and ease of navigation. I will soon ba adding all those links previously mentioned: http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark/canoe/hypo.html mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com----http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark ---- # mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index to club websites i administer] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page -- Fortune: "In a world without fences, who needs 'Gates'" -- Scott McNealy "In a world without walls, who needs 'Windows'" -- Dave Livigni *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
We have a local guy who paddles out of our boathouse in Manhattan and never wears a PFD; am not even certain if there is one in his boat. His name is something like John F. Kennedy Jr. The boathouse rule is to wear a PFD but no one dare say anything. Is that what they mean by the expression, noblesse oblige? We need someone with the moxie of Rich Kulawiec. :-) ralph *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 05:23:41PM -0700, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > We need someone with the moxie of Rich Kulawiec. :-) Hahahahaha!!! :-) :-) :-) ROTFL, Rich *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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