Scott wrote: >As a beach lifeguard I obviously didn't have a PFD >on. The lack of a PFD also increased my diving ability. Has anyone >tried to dive under a wave with a PFD on? What happens? Most of my swimming in surf with a PFD has been no problem. This occurs when I'm surf kayaking on the West Coast. Naturally, my own roll is bombproof, but occasionally I will deliberately "blow a roll" just so my less skilled companions do not develop an inferiority complex -). As you get closer to shore, you simply swim like hell as the waves pick you up, and kick just enough to "hold your place" as the water drains back out to sea (the same sort of technique you would use for moving through surge with SCUBA gear on, for those who dive.) Years ago, in winter on Lake Ontario, I did wind up swimming involuntarily. I had been knocked over and had wet exited. This was in my pre-paddle leash days, and by the time I had surfaced, the wind had snatched my empty and buoyant sea-kayak far out of reach (it made shore with no problem, and way ahead of me). Anyway, on that day, some weird conjunction of wind and wave meant that I got caught being endlessly "cycled" a few hundred feet offshore. The incoming wave would throw me forward a bit, then the ebb would take me back to where I had been. Even in my wetsuit, the water was very cold, and the situation was no joke. The solution turned out to be taking the dive knife off my ankle - one of those Rambo jobs, but with a pry end rather than a point. I would ride in on the ingoing wave. In the brief lull I would dive - fighting the buoyancy of the PFD, which was less in fresh water than it would be in salt - and plant the knife in the sand. I would hold with both hands as the outflow ran around me, then surface to begin the cycle again. It only took ten or so such cycles before I was in water shallow enough that incoming waves no longer knocked me over. Anyway, one experience, any others out there? Philip T. **************************************** Mountain Equipment Co-op 1655 West 3rd Avenue, Vancouver, BC, Canada V6J 1K1 Tel: 640-732-1989 Fax: 604-731-6483 email: pid_at_mec.ca Visit our website at: http://www.mec.ca ***************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Phillip wrote: <snip> >Years ago, in winter on Lake Ontario, I did wind up swimming involuntarily. >I had been knocked over and had wet exited. This was in my pre-paddle leash >days, and by the time I had surfaced, the wind had snatched my empty and >buoyant sea-kayak far out of reach (it made shore with no problem, and way >ahead of me). Anyway, on that day, some weird conjunction of wind and wave >meant that I got caught being endlessly "cycled" a few hundred feet >offshore. The incoming wave would throw me forward a bit, then the ebb >would take me back to where I had been. Even in my wetsuit, the water was >very cold, and the situation was no joke. The solution turned out to be >taking the dive knife off my ankle - one of those Rambo jobs, but with a >pry end rather than a point. I would ride in on the ingoing wave. In the >brief lull I would dive - fighting the buoyancy of the PFD, which was less >in fresh water than it would be in salt - and plant the knife in the sand. >I would hold with both hands as the outflow ran around me, then surface to >begin the cycle again. It only took ten or so such cycles before I was in >water shallow enough that incoming waves no longer knocked me over. > >Anyway, one experience, any others out there? > >Philip T. > you were lucky. years ago i mounted tripod towers in Lake Ontario. plan 1 was to use steel stakes to hold guywires in place. however the bottom was not sand, it was flat rock! so i went to a mountain climbing store and got pitons... sand near shore, was good for you. while there in early december, i experienced 43 degree water for extended periods in a wetsuit. cold is real. for me, wetsuits don't get it below 50 degrees...fortunately i did not get a winter job diving in one of the NY finger lakes, i didn't really want to wear a drysuit for diving. dry suits for kayaking are bad enough. your surf landing saga is quite interesting. bye bye bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ok, I'm on my soapbox again! I apologize for being so gabby. I generally don't have much to add substantively to this group. However, I really do know about the ocean surf, so please excuse my preaching ... Phil is describing a classic rip tide. And Phil, please excuse me, but you did exactly the wrong thing. You "clawed" your way back in with your knife, but probably expended must of your strength and energy in the process. First let me explain what a rip is. It is a kind of hole or ditch in the sand where the water continually re-circulates back to sea. It is very strong - usually you can't swim against it. It feels like an outgoing escalator. They are very easy to see from shore. They have a muddy appearance caused by the kicked up, recirculating sand. Rips are generally no more than 50 feet across, although I've seen giant rips almost a block long. The procedure for escaping a rip's jaws is simple. Just swim parallel to shore until you feel the pull of the rip dissipate. If you are a strong swimmer, you can cut diagnally through a rip. As guards, we would intentionally swim out in a rip - just like taking an outgoing escalator! Rips are great as long as you are going out! So folks if you are in the ocean (or even if you are in your kayak) and you are not making forward progress, try swimming parallel to shore for a while, and then try again. - Scott Phil wrote: Anyway, on that day, some weird conjunction of wind and wave > meant that I got caught being endlessly "cycled" a few hundred feet > offshore. The incoming wave would throw me forward a bit, then the ebb > would take me back to where I had been. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Product Information Department wrote: > Scott wrote: > >As a beach lifeguard I obviously didn't have a PFD > >on. The lack of a PFD also increased my diving ability. Has anyone > >tried to dive under a wave with a PFD on? What happens? > > [snip] Anyway, on that day, some weird conjunction of wind and wave > meant that I got caught being endlessly "cycled" a few hundred feet > offshore. The incoming wave would throw me forward a bit, then the ebb > would take me back to where I had been. Even in my wetsuit, the water was > very cold, and the situation was no joke. The solution turned out to be > taking the dive knife off my ankle - one of those Rambo jobs, but with a > pry end rather than a point. I would ride in on the ingoing wave. In the > brief lull I would dive - fighting the buoyancy of the PFD, which was less > in fresh water than it would be in salt - and plant the knife in the sand. > I would hold with both hands as the outflow ran around me, then surface to > begin the cycle again. It only took ten or so such cycles before I was in > water shallow enough that incoming waves no longer knocked me over. > > Anyway, one experience, any others out there? Scott has diagnosed this experience as a rip tide (rip current) situation, and suggested Phil might have avoided the problem by swimming parallel to the beach to get out of the rip. I think Scott's right on, there. As for the buoyancy of the PFD being a problem (can't get down), I'd like Phil's scan on that, also. In *large surf,* I think a PFD contributes to "maytagging." We had a long discussion on Wave~Length (precurser to Paddlewise) about this issue, which I don't think we need to repeat. I suspect one's personal experience, especially whether a person has had experience with *large* surf will shape a person's belief about the PFD in *large* surf issue. If the surf is 4 foot or smaller, the PFD is not a hindrance to me (it is easy to get under 4-footers when a wave passes by). Over 6 feet, I think the PFD *may* be a problem, depending on the skill and experience of the swimmer. An inexperienced swimmer, caught in the impact zone in large stuff, is in for a thrashing, PFD or not! I have not seen this myself, but others say when the Coast Guard rescue swimmers don the humongous "bunny suit" survival suits common to commercial fishing vessels, and allow them selves to get caught in big surf (part of their training), it's funny as hell to watch! -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR long-ago body surfer *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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