RE: [Paddlewise] FW: ACA meetings: Greenlan

Ahhhhh, a meaningless debate about the virtues of rolling.  What fun.  :)

First off, as Mark pointed out, his comments about rolling refered to canoes
-- not kayakes.  So I missed his point. Sorry Mark.

However, I thiink Kirby missed my point and expressed a common misconception
about the role of rolling.  There is no doubt that one role of rolling is to
cover your ass when something goes wrong.  In this case, the need to roll
follows from paddler failure and you could argue that depending on the roll
covered up for poor technique.

I submit, however, that the primary purpose of rolling is to expand your
saftey envelope thereby letting you "play with your kayak".  Rolling lets
you try things you would never try if every flip meant a swim.  For example,
when surfing, I woud never try to get my boat vertical (i.e. an ender)
unless I had a roll.  Yes, the ender is likely to flip me, but its not that
I did something wrong.  I pusposely for my enjoyment pushed the boat into
such a strange attitude that flipping was highly likely.  Any time I play in
the surf --- in a white water boat or a sea kayak -- I flip all the time!!!

This extends across the full range of the sport. I can purposely charge into
a nastey tide rip without worrying that a false move would result in a flip.
I can paddle alone at night in flat water knowing if I hit a submerged log
and flip, I'll come right up with a roll.  It opens up whole so much for the
paddler.  I genuinely feel sorry for people without a roll.  They are
missing out on so much!!!!

Learning to roll, however, is not excuse for failing to get the other skills
required in kayaking.  For example, I know several good white water kayakers
with flawless rolls and solid class IV skills who have no clue about how to
execute a proper forward stroke.  So while I think Kirby missed my point, I
bascially agree with Kirby that rolling must take a back seat to the
fundamental strokes as well as bracing.

--Tim

P.S. Anticipating a reply from the esteemed Mr. Winters, rolling does not
replace the need for sounds judgement.  As a careful reading of "Deep
trouble" will show, even a kayaker with a roll can find them selves in
deadly conditions where their roll can't save them. 

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Kirby Stevens [SMTP:stevens_at_islandnet.com]
> Sent:	Wednesday, December 16, 1998 8:12 AM
> To:	'Mattson, Timothy G'; 'canoeist_at_netbox.com';
> paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
> Subject:	RE: [Paddlewise] FW: ACA meetings: Greenlan
> 
> IMO    Clearly everyone has missed the point, rolling is not the end all
> for all.    If one has to perform an  Eskimo roll then they are doing
> something wrong.    Most instructors I know that are any good teach
> kayakers how to roll last because if you learn to roll early it is
> generally found that paddlers have  poor paddling techniques and  feel
> that they can just roll if they make a mistake.
> 
> Kirby
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Mattson, Timothy G [SMTP:timothy.g.mattson_at_intel.com]
> Sent:	Wednesday, December 16, 1998 7:32 AM
> To:	'canoeist_at_netbox.com'; paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
> Subject:	RE: [Paddlewise] FW: ACA meetings: Greenlan
> 
> Mark,
> 
> I think you missed the point of the Nigel Foster quote.  Your club (at
> least
> judging from your signature banner) is a sea kayak club.  We all know that
> sea kayakers --- for a variety of reasons -- avoid learning to roll.
> White
> water kayakers, on the other hand, are obsessed with rolling.  80% of the
> white water kayakers I know have solid river-rolls and the other 20% are
> working very hard to get theirs.
> 
> Clearly, only very serious sea kayakers learn to roll -- and these people
> tend to become (or already are) advanced paddlers.  This makes sea kayak
> rolling by construction an advanced technique.  But it doesn't have to be
> that way -- which is the point of the Nigel Foster quote.  Its not an
> advanced technique in white water paddling.  Given that rolling a sea
> kayak
> is no harder than rolling a white water boat (except when the  sea kayak
> fits too loosely in which case they can be a bit harder to roll), there is
> no reason rolling can't be a basic skill in sea kayaking as well.
> 
> The benefits of rolling a sea kayak are almost as great as in a white
> water
> boat.  Its fun to stray into an intense tide rip or pounding surf and
> being
> able to relax 'cause you can fall back on your roll.  It greatly expands
> the
> range of conditions you can safely enjoy.  I qualify my opening sentence
> with the word "almost", however, since some portion of the sea kayaking
> population chooses to always paddle in calm water and as long as they take
> steps to stick to that decision, they may not NEED to know how to roll
> (though even they would benefit from the obvious saftey benefits of having
> a
> roll).
> 
> 
> --Tim
> 
> P.S. Anticipating a response from the gentleman from New York concerning
> folding boats, there are boats that are hard to roll by design hence, it
> is
> therefore possible that for these isolated cases, it is not productive to
> push acquisition of rolling skills. 
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:	Mark Zen [SMTP:canoeist_at_netbox.com]
> > Sent:	Tuesday, December 15, 1998 4:14 PM
> > To:	paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
> > Subject:	Re: [Paddlewise] FW: ACA meetings: Greenlan
> > 
> > >>as Nigel Foster pointed out in Sea Kayaker some time ago, a roll is
> > >>considered a basic skill in whitewater, so why not in sea kayaking?
> > >
> > >HMMMM. Now, if a roll is a basic skill in kayaking then what about
> > >canoeing?
> > 
> > rolling is an advanced skill... under 10% can roll in a pool, less than 
> > 5% under combat conditions, at least that's my observation of a 250-300+
> > member club.
> > 
> > mark
> > 
> > #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com--------------------------------------
> > mark zen                      o,    o__              o_/|   o_.
> > po box 474                   </     [\/              [\_|   [\_\
> > ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----')      (`----|-------\-')
> > #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~
> > http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler  [index of Paddling websites I manage]
> > Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers
> > The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page 
> > #-Fortune:
> > "In a world without fences, who needs 'Gates'"
> >         -- Scott McNealy, CEO Sun Microsystems
> > 
> > "In a world without walls, who needs 'Windows'"
> >         -- Dave Livigni
> > 
> >
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