There is a low volume footpump made by Lendal which is useful for keeping the cockpit dry but not much good for emptying a cockpit after a capsize/roll failure. The Henderson Chimp pump is a higher volume pump that can be attached to the bulkhead or to a crossbar/footbrace. It is adequate for emptying a cockpitful of water. Great River Outfitters who sells them (as has been pointed out) can be contacted online at: http://www.erols.com/rapids/GRO. Larry Koenig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/29/99 8:44:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, jjeanson_at_intersurf.com writes: << The Henderson Chimp pump is a higher volume pump that can be attached to the bulkhead or to a crossbar/footbrace. It is adequate for emptying a cockpitful of water. Great River Outfitters who sells them (as has been pointed out) can be contacted online at: http://www.erols.com/rapids/GRO. >> Henderson is owned by Munster Simms Engineering Ltd.in the UK; they also own Whale Pumps, and there are a lot of read-acrosses. Whale makes a deck pump called the Urchin which is very similar to the Chimp deck pump, but they don't make a Chimp-style foot pump. But Whale makes a Babyfoot Pump, small, low volume, but possibly suitable for a small boat or for a child's boat. Works great, but takes a long time to empty out a Pintail! GRO sells Henderson pumps, and is a good source, but their prices occasionally approach the obscene. Check with a good chandlery to see if they carry Henderson (there <is> a U.S. distributor). Fawcett's in Annapolis, MD, for example, sells the Henderson line --- as well as Whale --- and lists the Chimp foot pump at $142, might give a discount, and, when they have their sale in February, will sell the Chimp for probably under $100. GRO sells it for $229. Go figure. Foot pumps are great 'cause they allow you free use of your hands with the skirt on while you empty out your boat. Definitely a plus. You can also carry a spare length of hose with a double fitting on one end; this allows you to disconnect your strum box, reconnect the extra hose, and use your foot pump to empty out the cockpit of an exhausted paddler along side . Nice safety factor there. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: You can also > carry a spare length of hose with a double fitting on one end; this allows you > to disconnect your strum box, reconnect the extra hose, and use your foot pump > to empty out the cockpit of an exhausted paddler along side . Nice safety > factor there. > > Jack Martin Hi Jack, Seems that foot pumps are a good idea, but I can't imagine reaching down into the cockpit down by the footpegs or the bulkhead to attatch the spare hose- on dry land it would be quite a long reach, in the water sitting in the cockpit impossible. Am I missing something? is the strum box in a different place that the pumping mechanism? is there a picture out there? -- gabriel l romeu http://members.aol.com/romeug studio furniture http://members.aol.com/romeugp paintings, photos, prints, etc. http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR a daily photo journal *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/31/99 9:57:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, romeug_at_erols.com writes: << Seems that foot pumps are a good idea, but I can't imagine reaching down into the cockpit down by the footpegs or the bulkhead to attatch the spare hose- on dry land it would be quite a long reach, in the water sitting in the cockpit impossible. Am I missing something? is the strum box in a different place that the pumping mechanism? is there a picture out there? >> Dunno about the picture, Gabriel, but the strum box --- a fiberglass wedge- shaped pickup for the bilge --- is usually located somewhere near the low point in the boat (won't try center of gravity or center of balance with this hi-tech PaddleWise crowd), which is, usually, pretty close to the paddler's seat. I'd agree that reaching to the bulkhead might be a bit of a stretch, but that's not where the water is. It's where you are. So, you just reach down, disconnect the hose at the strum box --- often right in front of you --- connect the extra length, and empty the water out of your exhausted buddy's boat while you talk to him/her about where you go from there. Just another useful feature of the foot pump. (The Henderson Chimp deck pump --- which is the functional twin of the more easily abailable $40 Whale Urchin, only for a lot more money --- can be used to pump out other's boats, as well.) Jack *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> So, you just reach > down, disconnect the hose at the strum box --- often right in front of you -- got it- thanks, gabriel -- Gabriel L Romeu http://users.aol.com/romeug -------> furniture http://users.aol.com/romeugp ---> paintings, prints, photos + stuff http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR --> a daily journal of observations *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/1/99 0:17:21 AM EST, JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com writes: << connect the extra length, and empty the water out of your exhausted buddy's boat while you talk to him/her about where you go from there. >> Have you done this in the real world or did some passionate intsructor/salesman in part this information? Real world Example: I have taken part in many assisted reentry rescues during coastal trips. Kayaks side by side and the swimmer climes on back deck then into cockpit. The two paddlers pump out the swamped kayak with hand pumps. It works. Theory/practice example: Perfomed practice paddlefloat reentry many times over the last ten years but never had to do it for real. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I have found this discussion of footpumps (and electric pumps) informative, as I have only been exposed to hand held pumps. I do have one question, however. Where does the pump discharge? On larger boats the bilge pump disharges out a thru-hull fitting. The comment has been made that a foot pump can be used with the spray skirt on - so where does the pump discharge? Is there a thru-hull fitting? Thanks, Ralph *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/1/99 8:10:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, Tomckayak_at_aol.com writes: << Have you [bailed out a kayak in distress with a footpump] in the real world or did some passionate intsructor/salesman in part this information? >> Neither. Dunno where I got the idea --- although I'm sure it wasn't original. But I've done it in drills a good deal, and think it's a viable option to a handpump. (I've also never done CPR in the real world, but I think I'm still qualified.) Jack *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I have tried it in a real incident, it did not work. We had 6+ foot seas with high slope, and were just outside of a rock garden. Someone in a Romany 16, who obviously did not have the skills for that trip, capsized. In spite of his farmer John wet suit, he became hypothermic withing seconds. We got him back in his boat, and tried to pump it out. There was about as much water coming in from the waves, as coming out through the pump. The wind was pushing us towards the rocks, so we proceeded to tow the victim, with someone holding him, away from rocks. The victim became even more hypothermic, and eventually capsized again even though someone was stabilizing his kayak. We almost lost the guy. I already described the incident earlier last year, for your reference, in the context of how a novice can get into an advance trip unoticed, when there are more than 10 paddlers. Anyway, the hand pump was not much help in those conditions. My advice is that, if you find yourself in similar conditions, forget about pumping. Get back in the kayak and try to keep yourself upright until help arrive, or the conditions improve. If you have a pump other than hand-helf, and your level of energy allows it, you might try to pump a little water in between braces, but do not make that a high priority. - Julio > In a message dated 2/1/99 8:10:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, Tomckayak_at_aol.com > writes: > > << > Have you [bailed out a kayak in distress with a footpump] in the real world > or did some passionate intsructor/salesman in part this information? > >> > > Neither. Dunno where I got the idea --- although I'm sure it wasn't original. > But I've done it in drills a good deal, and think it's a viable option to a > handpump. (I've also never done CPR in the real world, but I think I'm still > qualified.) > > Jack *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I've thought long and hard about installing a foot pump in my kayak. Despite a friend giving me a very nice Henderson foot pump, I'm still undecided on whether I want to install it, here are my thoughts: I <should> require a pump only after a worst case scenario occurs and I'm forced to evacuate the cockpit or if a spray deck failure occurs and a wave or a hard brace condition causes the cockpit to flood. Outside of practice conditions, this has never happened, but is something that could occur, I've seen it happen to others on numerous occasions. My roll is good and I practice often, but I don't think anyone's roll (including mine) is bomb proof -- stuff happens. Okay, so here I am, in the water, hopefully hanging on to my kayak and paddle, most likely under difficult conditions. What next? If the water is cold and I start to feel the cold sink in, I'd likely want to get back in my boat ASAP! I'd do a reentry and roll, most likely after attaching a foam paddle float (no need to inflate thus saving time) to use for support once up to allow for attachment of spray deck and subsequent pumping. I think the only time I'd not attach the paddle float would be if I needed to quickly paddle away from a hazard (yes, with a flooded cockpit). At some point, I'd need to reattach the spray deck and begin to clear the water out of the cockpit. Simply reattaching the spray deck can be a difficult prospect in my boat in rough water, I've tried it. I think I'd want to use my paddle with paddle float attached as an outrigger for support while I put the skirt back on to improve my chances of success. This would also put me in a pretty good position to make use of the high volume plastic hand pump that I carry. If I had a foot pump installed, I think I'd still need to use the paddle float to get the skirt back on. At this point, given the choice of a low-to-mid volume foot pump or a high volume hand pump, I'd likely choose the hand pump to get the job done faster. Having the option to use one of the two might be nice. In reality, I rarely go paddling solo when the water temps or sea conditions are dangerous. When I do go paddling in cold conditions solo, I stick to sheltered areas on calm days and stay close to shore. I attempt to use good judgment prior to deciding to go to avoid being put in difficult situations. Should I wet exit, I could easily paddle with a flooded cockpit to the nearest shore. When I'm paddling with others under more challenging conditions, I have the choice of attempting a self rescue or requesting assistance from others. I prefer to be self-reliant, but if others are present, they could provide considerable assistance and speed the process of rescue and water removal. Clearly, all sorts of unexpected events can occur. I like having backup systems and multiple ways for dealing with problems, if one approach fails another approach can be used. I think I like the thought of having two different pump systems, but I'm not sure I want to carry so much extra weight for the off chance that a backup system might be needed. Thus my dilemma. I've seen a few good ideas that others have used that help improve the water in the cockpit problem. One is filling unnecessary cockpit spaces with closed cell foam (sprayed in), as the foam increases, the space available for excess water decreases leaving less to pump out. This, of course, can be taken to extremes which could cause a potentially dangerous exit situation. Sea socks can help reduce the amount of water in the cockpit area - though I've never seen anyone in a hard shell use one -- I think that I'd have one if I paddled a hard shell that didn't have bulkheads. Sponsons, never mind... let's not go there. Other ideas??? Foot pump pros: 1) A hands free method to get water out of the cockpit - use of a hand pump without assistance from other paddlers will be a difficult prospect - a paddle float outrigger might help with solo hand pumping under some conditions. Other conditions might require maneuvering while pumping. 2) Provides an alternative system to clearing water out of cockpit (given that one carries a hand pump too) 3) Allows easy removal of occasional water taken on during a trip or during practice sessions Foot pump cons: 1) The pump adds extra weight (to my already heavy NordKapp) 2) Foot pumps are typically low volume and are not very efficient when pumping out a full cockpit - it takes a lot longer than a hand pump 3) Lots of extra parts to fail (pump, hoses, strum box, etc.) I've checked out several boats with foot pumps, nearly every one had a broken component, perhaps this is due to improper maintenance...? 4) Extra hole in the deck - let's face it, we all think twice before drilling any new holes. A hole big enough for a pump outlet provides an opportunity for water to enter 5) Questionable usefulness under severe conditions - can one effectively pump while handling difficult seas - I've asked a few with foot pumps to demonstrate pumping out a full cockpit. In calm seas, it takes quite an effort and in one case caused foot cramps for the person. In difficult conditions, it's nice to have your feet locked in to allow for maneuvering. 6) Still need to carry a hand pump for backup? 7) Can't be shared with other boats unless the the pump has some sort of extension hose that can be placed in the other cockpit. This is my collective knowledge and opinions to date on this topic, feel free to criticize, flame, counter, clarify, etc. - I wouldn't mind hearing opposing thoughts from those of you who have greater experience in dealing with problems getting recovered after a wet exit under challenging circumstances. Thanks, Greg - Greg Hollingsworth EMAIL: gregh_at_abs.net PHONE: 240-228-6065 WWW: abs.net/~gregh/kayaking LIVES: Sykesville, Maryland WORKS: Johns Hopkins/Applied Physics Lab PADDLES: Red Nordkapp usually on Chesapeake tributaries - *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Greg; I went to a foot pump some years ago after ewperimenting with rough water rescues and discovering just how difficult it was doing a self rescue in 'real' rough water. Having a paddlefloat on the end of my paddle helped to some degree, but not much. [As an aside; I know of very few paddlers who have actually done self rescue practice in real conditions. It certainly makes the decision process alot clearer not having to theorize about how a rescue might go.] Emptying a boat with a hand pump by yourself is a hassle in the best of circumstances and well nigh impossible when the conditions are rough (not even considering being cold). Using your elbows (or belly) to hold the paddle at a right angle to the kayak just does not work very well while you are wrestling with your pump and the sea is shoving you all over the place. The paddlefloat is a handy tool but is lousy (and maybe even misleading) in true emergency conditions. Also, I find it bad policy (for myself) to be dependent on my paddling partners to rescue me. This isn't to say that I don't appreciate help, it's just that any conditions that may result in my having difficulty are most likely going to be difficult to rescue or be rescued in. The huge advantage of a foot pump is that it allows you to both brace and paddle while you empty your boat. It is also, contrary to what I have read over the last few days, not a problem to brace with your knees while emptying the boat. You simply time it as needed. Concerning the difficulty in putting on your sprayskirt in rough water. I re-enter and roll, pause for a bit to catch my breath, and simply roll back over again and put my sprayskirt on while upside down. It's really not that hard to do provided you can force yourself to relax. It's much like stripping a paddle off of your back deck to do a 1/2 paddle roll in the event of losing your paddle. You don't have to keep your balance while upside down and it greatly simplifies the process as a result. BTW, although the Henderson foot pump is a lower volume pump than the standard hand pump it is still much faster in rough water both because you can begin pumping immediately and because it uses the large muscles of the leg and butt and not simply the arm muscles. John Winskill *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/2/99 7:45:01 PM EST, johncw_at_narrows.com writes: << This isn't to say that I don't appreciate help, it's just that any conditions that may result in my having difficulty are most likely going to be difficult to rescue or be rescued in. >> If its so vary bad that I would actually come out of my boat its all over? Is there any rescue that can survive this standard. Its the people in lets say the first five years of paddling that have a need to be rescued. I was put back in my kayak four or five times in my first three years kayaking. Most coastal club trips I have been on have at lest one "Put the new guy back in his boat" operation. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I would like to second some of the thoughts that John shared. In true self rescues reattaching the sprayskirt is the biggest chore. If you can do it from the maximum point of stability (down periscope-talking to the trout) so much the better. For a reentry roll with minimal gear ie not to much bouyancy from a drysuit or wetsuit, I find it easy to stick my head facing the back of the seat and rest and breath in the air pocket before someraulting into the boat. This done it gives me enough time to hook the skirt if I am relaxed. Having practiced your rescue skills until you are confident is important since if you are really unnerved you will burn up your air fast! I would always use a paddle float roll since the paddle float is useful for the followup pumping etc. With a drysuit and full battle gear I find that I tend to float up to one side of the other of the boat, which makes reentry a bit more difficult but a half roll or sculling brace usually buys me a bite of air if need extra time to hook the sprayskirt. I have used all three systems and I have settled on using a Henderson deck pump mounted in the middle of my deck in front of me with the low profile fittings and detachable handle. This allows me to easily pump with one hand while bracing on a paddle float with the other hand. Most important of all it is not in my way when I don't need it, which is of course most of the time. The only disadvantage to this system is that the drop hose goes straight down so if you do a face-down reentry such as a paddle float rescue you need to cross your legs as you get in and slide back so that you can turn and sit up without hitting the hose. I don't like hand help pumps for a solo rescue because they require at best 1.5 hands to operate - one hand and and elbows, forearms etc. to hold them in place. To expect the manufacturers rating of 60 strokes per minute in rough conditions solo for any pump is just not realistic. Regardless of your system you will probably have to pump between the waves and grab your paddle and brace like hell when the next breaking wave hits you. If you can pump sixty times per minute in these conditions you are a far better man than I. I do believe that the foot pumps are bit slower in part because you need to wait for the spring to return the pump to the up position where with and handle you can more actively pull up. The foot pump allows you to be ready to brace at all times with the only compromise being you may have a little poorer footing with one leg during the pumping. If conditions are extreme pump when you can and get your feet back on the braces when you need them. Regardless this is much better than trying to use a two handed hand pump and brace with your forearms and elbows on the paddle shaft. If given a choice in a solo rescue situation I would always choose the foot pump, the one-handed deck pump would be my second choice and the hand pump a distant third. One place where a hand pump works great is for pumping out other peoples boats. With a raft of three you can quickly pump out the victims boat with two or three pumps from a stable raft. It is also great to carry a hand pump as backup in case your pump is frozen or fails for some mechanical reason. Some of the comments discussed using longer hoses or attachments to pump out other boats with a dedicated foot or deck mounted pump. This works but it is cumbersome and the more hose lenght you add the lower you pumping rate. If you want to be ready as a good Samaritan for a hapless-pumpless victum having a hand pump is your best bet. However I would recommend that you instead paddle with others so you can raft up to pump out and most importantly make sure that anyone in your group is properly equipped with their own pump so you will not need to use your pump on their boat. As for practicing any of the techniques in rough conditions I must admit that I have only done most practice rescues in at most 3-5 foot seas and winds of 20-25 knots. However there was never a problem with any of the three ways - I just found it was by far much more difficult with a hand pump and took much longer since it was hard to be ready brace when larger waves hit me. As for paddling in really nasty conditions pumps and paddle floats are nice backup if you get seperated from you friends, but there is no substitute for a reliable roll and couple of skill companions to save your but if you miss that roll. A reentry roll or a team rescue will likely limit the amount of water in you kayak, but pumping it out will take time. As for the scenario of drifting into the lee shore while pumping, again a group is a big help. When in doubt anchor the rescue with a tow line right away and have a second paddler raft with the capsized victum for stability. Then you can pump at your leisure and hopefully not have to choose between being stable and braced for being able to pump. John C. Winskill wrote: > Greg; > > I went to a foot pump some years ago after ewperimenting with rough > water rescues and discovering just how difficult it was doing a self > rescue in 'real' rough water. Having a paddlefloat on the end of my > paddle helped to some degree, but not much. [As an aside; I know of > very few paddlers who have actually done self rescue practice in real > conditions. It certainly makes the decision process alot clearer not > having to theorize about how a rescue might go.] Emptying a boat with a > hand pump by yourself is a hassle in the best of circumstances and well > nigh impossible when the conditions are rough (not even considering > being cold). Using your elbows (or belly) to hold the paddle at a right > angle to the kayak just does not work very well while you are wrestling > with your pump and the sea is shoving you all over the place. The > paddlefloat is a handy tool but is lousy (and maybe even misleading) in > true emergency conditions. Also, I find it bad policy (for myself) to > be dependent on my paddling partners to rescue me. This isn't to say > that I don't appreciate help, it's just that any conditions that may > result in my having difficulty are most likely going to be difficult to > rescue or be rescued in. > The huge advantage of a foot pump is that it allows you to both brace > and paddle while you empty your boat. It is also, contrary to what I > have read over the last few days, not a problem to brace with your knees > while emptying the boat. You simply time it as needed. > Concerning the difficulty in putting on your sprayskirt in rough water. > I re-enter and roll, pause for a bit to catch my breath, and simply roll > back over again and put my sprayskirt on while upside down. It's really > not that hard to do provided you can force yourself to relax. It's much > like stripping a paddle off of your back deck to do a 1/2 paddle roll in > the event of losing your paddle. You don't have to keep your balance > while upside down and it greatly simplifies the process as a result. > BTW, although the Henderson foot pump is a lower volume pump than the > standard hand pump it is still much faster in rough water both because > you can begin pumping immediately and because it uses the large muscles > of the leg and butt and not simply the arm muscles. > John Winskill > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
The though occurred to me that the easiest way to bail a boat during a reentry and roll with the inverted skirt attachment method would be to blow it out! Every cubic foot of gas blown into the cockpit will displace a cubic foot of water. Maybe a couple of large CO2 cartridges mounted under the deck and fired with a string would do the trick? Would also provide comic relief if the cartridges were fired when upright with the skirt in place?! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Bob Denton wrote: > > The though occurred to me that the easiest way to bail a boat during a > reentry and roll with the inverted skirt attachment method would be to blow > it out! ... Maybe a couple of large CO2 cartridges mounted under the deck > and fired with a string would do the trick? This is a clever idea, but if you are willing to carry a large CO2 cartridge then you can probably avoid the need to reenter in the first place. Just about everyone is able to roll if they have something to hang on to, such as the bow of another kayak or a large inflated bag (with a handle attached). This is the principle underlying the Roll Backup device. This device is essentially a large nylon bag with a handle attached--the bag is rolled up and slid into a small plastic cylinder. There is a large CO2 cartridge attached in such a way that as one grabs the handle and pulls, the CO2 cartidge is punctured as the bag slides out of the cylinder, inflating the bag. One then uses the bag in the same way that one would use a friends bow to help one roll up. (There is a clip attached of a type that makes it easy to attach the bag behind you to a deck line--with one hand--after you are back up.) What if for some reason it doesn't work? Then you can use the bag as a paddle float (it has paddle attachment straps, and can be manually inflated). Of course, as the manufacturer stresses in the instructions, one should learn how to roll rather than relying on this device. But it does provide a "back-up" if you miss your roll. Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Dan, Have you (or anyone else on this list) ever used one of these devices in a real situation? I think it is based on a good concept, since rolling back up, whichever way, beats a wet-exit and self-rescue hands down. However I doubt I will ever have the opportunity to try one myself. Also, what are the chances of loading it improperly such that it fails to deploy? On a lighter note, I bet this would be a good backup device for practicing one of the most impressive rolls imaginable... The Straight Jacket Roll. But only if it can be deployed with yer teeth :) ___________________ / Kevin Whilden \ |Dept. of Geosciences \___ |University of Washington \ |kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu| \________________________/ On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Dan Hagen wrote: > Bob Denton wrote: > > > > The though occurred to me that the easiest way to bail a boat during a > > reentry and roll with the inverted skirt attachment method would be to blow > > it out! ... Maybe a couple of large CO2 cartridges mounted under the deck > > and fired with a string would do the trick? > > This is a clever idea, but if you are willing to carry a large CO2 > cartridge then you can probably avoid the need to reenter in the first > place. Just about everyone is able to roll if they have something to > hang on to, such as the bow of another kayak or a large inflated bag > (with a handle attached). This is the principle underlying the Roll > Backup device. This device is essentially a large nylon bag with a > handle attached--the bag is rolled up and slid into a small plastic > cylinder. There is a large CO2 cartridge attached in such a way that as > one grabs the handle and pulls, the CO2 cartidge is punctured as the bag > slides out of the cylinder, inflating the bag. One then uses the bag in > the same way that one would use a friends bow to help one roll up. > (There is a clip attached of a type that makes it easy to attach the bag > behind you to a deck line--with one hand--after you are back up.) What > if for some reason it doesn't work? Then you can use the bag as a paddle > float (it has paddle attachment straps, and can be manually inflated). > Of course, as the manufacturer stresses in the instructions, one should > learn how to roll rather than relying on this device. But it does > provide a "back-up" if you miss your roll. > > Dan Hagen > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
The BackUp does not beat the solid paddlefloat that I always carry in the aft deck. I only have to unlock it from the deck lines, and roll up with it. It is a 10x20x3 piece of foam inside a fabric cover. It has a strap sewn flat across its length to grab it with the rolling hand. The paddle goes through a slot in the middle of the block. I use it when I loose my main paddle, and my spare paddle roll fails. But mostly I use it to get back up while trying to learn hand rolls. It is just a solid "avataq", or Greenland multipupose float. - Julio > > Hi Dan, > > Have you (or anyone else on this list) ever used one of these devices in a > real situation? I think it is based on a good concept, since rolling back > up, whichever way, beats a wet-exit and self-rescue hands down. However I > doubt I will ever have the opportunity to try one myself. Also, what are > the chances of loading it improperly such that it fails to deploy? > > On a lighter note, I bet this would be a good backup device for > practicing one of the most impressive rolls imaginable... The Straight > Jacket Roll. But only if it can be deployed with yer teeth :) > > ___________________ > / Kevin Whilden \ > |Dept. of Geosciences \___ > |University of Washington \ > |kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu| > \________________________/ > > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
K. Whilden wrote: > Hi Dan, > > Have you (or anyone else on this list) ever used one of these devices > in a > real situation? ...<snip>... Also, what are > the chances of loading it improperly such that it fails to deploy? If by "real" situation, you mean in cold water with strong winds and large waves (i.e., the sort of circumstances in which one is likely to use the device), the answer is no. I have been meaning to do this, but have not yet done so--the gale-force winds anticipated for this weekend might provide a good testing opportunity. :-) I am optimistic that it will work in these circumstances, but my optimism has not yet been tested. As for the loading issue, one can never rule out the possibility of such a failure. Given the simplicity of loading the device, I would think that such problems would be rare for a reasonably cautious user. But all devices can be expected to fail at some point. By the way, there is a lot to be said for Julio's approach (the solid-float-on-the-back-deck). While it takes up more space on the deck, there is the obvious advantage of not having to inflate it. On the other hand, perhaps the larger profile of the solid float would make it more likely to be ripped off the deck in breaking waves. Still, the simplicity of a solid float is very appealing. Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Bob Denton wrote: >Maybe a couple of large CO2 cartridges mounted under the deck > and fired with a string would do the trick? > > Would also provide comic relief if the cartridges were fired when upright > with the skirt in place?! A propulsion aid in getting up to dock... -- gabriel l romeu http://members.aol.com/romeug studio furniture http://members.aol.com/romeugp paintings, photos, prints, etc. http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR a daily photo journal *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/3/99 10:16:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, BDenton_at_aquagulf.com writes: << The though occurred to me that the easiest way to bail a boat during a reentry and roll with the inverted skirt attachment method would be to blow it out! Every cubic foot of gas blown into the cockpit will displace a cubic foot of water. >> Why do I sense an Inuit-oriented message from Dr. Inverbon coming down the ways? They must, undoubtedly, have had a method for this type of recovery. <Wonder> how they did it! Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/1/99 12:34:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, UncleRalph_at_aol.com writes: << I have found this discussion of footpumps (and electric pumps) informative, as I have only been exposed to hand held pumps. I do have one question, however. Where does the pump discharge? On larger boats the bilge pump disharges out a thru-hull fitting. The comment has been made that a foot pump can be used with the spray skirt on - so where does the pump discharge? Is there a thru-hull fitting? >> Usually there's a thru-hull fitting, although some people put it out the top through the deck. Seems to work pretty well either way. Try to keep the hoses short and as straight as you can. But you <do> have to cut a hole in something! Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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