I have not tried submerging at 3 degrees F., but I have come close. Last spring I went for a swim in Lake Superior in my gortex dry suit after I had been paddling for a couple of hours. Like you, I was interested in seeing if the insulation I had on was sufficient and to try swimming in cold water with a dry suit. My insulation was patagonia stretch polypropylene with 200 weight fleece pants and sweater in addition. My feet were insulated with fleece socks and gortex socks. I pulled the latex gasket over the top of the gortex sock to get a smooth relatively water tight seal. The air temperature was in the 50's F. The water temperature was in the upper 30's F. My insulation was too much for paddling, I quickly became uncomfortable in the dry suit. I found I could cool down quickly by immersing my hands in the lake. When I stopped paddling I went for a short swim. I found that the insulation that had been too much when I was paddling was not enough when I was swimming. The moisture in my insulation appeared to help transfer my body heat to the cold lake water. Also the cold water on my hands greatly reduced my dexterity. The dry suit and PFD interferred with my ability to swim. I came to much the same conclusion as Chuck, it was an interesting experiment, and I would not want to put myself in a position where I may have to swim any substantial distance to safety in cold water. Dana Dickson Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 08:14:36 -0500 From: "Sisler, Clyde" <Clyde.Sisler_at_wang.com> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] New Year's Paddle And a conclusion: Icing reduces one's safety margin considerably. Paddling in such cold weather is an interesting experiment, but I don't recommend it for extended trips. - ----------------- Interesting comments. Have you (or anyone else) ever had the nerve to walk into the water and submerge yourself in your drysuit before or after a paddle in that kind of weather? I feel I have to do that before my first cold paddle because a) I want to know in general what it's really like in a controlled situation and b) to ensure I have enough insulation. <snip> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dickson, Dana A. wrote: > I have not tried submerging at 3 degrees F., but I have come close. Last > spring I went for a swim in Lake Superior in my gortex dry suit after I had > been paddling for a couple of hours. Like you, I was interested in seeing > if the insulation I had on was sufficient and to try swimming in cold water > with a dry suit. My insulation was patagonia stretch polypropylene with 200 > weight fleece pants and sweater in addition. My feet were insulated with > fleece socks and gortex socks. I pulled the latex gasket over the top of > the gortex sock to get a smooth relatively water tight seal. The air > temperature was in the 50's F. The water temperature was in the upper 30's > F. My insulation was too much for paddling, I quickly became uncomfortable > in the dry suit. I found I could cool down quickly by immersing my hands in > the lake. When I stopped paddling I went for a short swim. I found that the > insulation that had been too much when I was paddling was not enough when I > was swimming. The moisture in my insulation appeared to help transfer my > body heat to the cold lake water. Also the cold water on my hands greatly > reduced my dexterity. The dry suit and PFD interferred with my ability to > swim. I came to much the same conclusion as Chuck, it was an interesting > experiment, and I would not want to put myself in a position where I may > have to swim any substantial distance to safety in cold water. > > Dana Dickson > > Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 08:14:36 -0500 > From: "Sisler, Clyde" <Clyde.Sisler_at_wang.com> > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] New Year's Paddle > > And a conclusion: Icing reduces one's safety margin > considerably. Paddling in such cold weather is an interesting > experiment, but I don't recommend it for extended trips. > > - ----------------- > > Interesting comments. Have you (or anyone else) ever had the nerve to walk > into the water and submerge yourself in your drysuit before or after a > paddle in that kind of weather? > > I feel I have to do that before my first cold paddle because a) I want to > know in general what it's really like in a controlled situation and b) to > ensure I have enough insulation. > > <snip> > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** Having spent many hours underwater in a dry suit while scuba diving, I know it gets cold. The suit that I used was vulcanized rubber with a thick insulation suit underneath. Experience showed that the more air that was inside the suit, the warmer I was. Water compresses any insulation reducing it's ability to keep you warm. Many times I would have to float with my feet higher than my head just to get the air around my feet to warm them up. I also found that a good fitting wet suit worked just as well as my dry suit will under water, the dry suit was better during the entry and exit from the shore. Just food for thought. Steve LaDue *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
There may be an entrepreneurial opportunity here. We seem to have a need for a non-compressible insulation material that will keep the insulating air from being squeezed out from under a dry suit and keep the insulating air from collecting near the feet of the paddler and holding the paddler upside down in the water. Although I have never tried it, I am told that extensive paddling in a head down, feet up position is not a recommended practice and may be anti-survival. I will leave the experimental proof to others. Dana Dickson -----Original Message----- From: Steven LaDue [mailto:due459_at_frontiernet.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 10:47 AM To: Dickson, Dana A. Cc: 'PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net' Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Ice Swimming <snip> Having spent many hours underwater in a dry suit while scuba diving, I know it gets cold. The suit that I used was vulcanized rubber with a thick insulation suit underneath. Experience showed that the more air that was inside the suit, the warmer I was. Water compresses any insulation reducing it's ability to keep you warm. Many times I would have to float with my feet higher than my head just to get the air around my feet to warm them up. I also found that a good fitting wet suit worked just as well as my dry suit will under water, the dry suit was better during the entry and exit from the shore. Just food for thought. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Well, it sounds as if several inner layers of bubble wrap might privide that non-compressible dry suit insulation. I can supply a make-your-own bubble wrap dry suit insulation kit for around $450.00 if anyone wants to try it..... mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Mark H. Hunt wrote: > > Well, it sounds as if several inner layers of bubble wrap might > privide that non-compressible dry suit insulation. I can supply a > make-your-own bubble wrap dry suit insulation kit for around $450.00 if > anyone wants to try it..... Tongue-in-cheek, Mark's suggestion might be, but he may have hit on a way to achieve a FLEXIBLE noncompressible insulation material. When the notion of "noncompressible" insulation came up, I chortled at the idea, thinking that anything which would resist the pressures of water (at depth, anyway) would certainly be so rigid a person could not bend or flex while wearing "noncompressible" insulation. However, if Mark can make his bubble wrap suit so that the bubbles articulate a little bit, it might actually work! After all, the bubbles mainly have to keep the outer layer away from your skin, preserving an air gap. They don't necessarily have to jam against each other side-to-side. Maybe fleece-infiltrations which gently interlock the bubbles? I'll market my improvement on Mark's suggestion for only, say, $650 per kit, and offer a two-year warranty on replacing the bubbles. Some assembly required ... -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 04:01 AM 1/6/99 -0800, Dave Kruger wrote: >Mark H. Hunt wrote: >> >> Well, it sounds as if several inner layers of bubble wrap might >> privide that non-compressible dry suit insulation. I can supply a >> make-your-own bubble wrap dry suit insulation kit for around $450.00 if >> anyone wants to try it..... > > >I'll market my improvement on Mark's suggestion for only, say, $650 per >kit, and offer a two-year warranty on replacing the bubbles. Some assembly >required ... > >-- >Dave Kruger >Astoria, OR Wouldn't be easier just to move further south where it is warm than mess with all this stuff. For thr price you could have a nice vacation where it is warm Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I have been thinking about making a rescue bag that would keep a person warm and afloat at sea. My initial idea was to use one of those 'space blanket' bags, with big sponsons on the side. The idea of the bubble wrap is good improvement, it would also protect the body when hitting rocks. The only thing that is missing from the initial design is a way to breath with the persons head inside the bag. The bag could have both the space blanket and bubble rap, with a neck made out of a type II PFD; but then the persons head is out on the weather loosing heat. I would like to come up with a method of completely enclosing a body, and keep it warm with an endless supply of air. Please put on your creative hats, and lets come up with something good. :-) - Julio > > Mark H. Hunt wrote: > > > > Well, it sounds as if several inner layers of bubble wrap might > > privide that non-compressible dry suit insulation. I can supply a > > make-your-own bubble wrap dry suit insulation kit for around $450.00 if > > anyone wants to try it..... > > Tongue-in-cheek, Mark's suggestion might be, but he may have hit on a way > to achieve a FLEXIBLE noncompressible insulation material. > > When the notion of "noncompressible" insulation came up, I chortled at the > idea, thinking that anything which would resist the pressures of water (at > depth, anyway) would certainly be so rigid a person could not bend or flex > while wearing "noncompressible" insulation. However, if Mark can make his > bubble wrap suit so that the bubbles articulate a little bit, it might > actually work! After all, the bubbles mainly have to keep the outer layer > away from your skin, preserving an air gap. They don't necessarily have to > jam against each other side-to-side. > > Maybe fleece-infiltrations which gently interlock the bubbles? > > I'll market my improvement on Mark's suggestion for only, say, $650 per > kit, and offer a two-year warranty on replacing the bubbles. Some assembly > required ... > > -- > Dave Kruger > Astoria, OR > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
A tiny straw attatched to the bubble wrap would enable a patient person to breath air trapped inside individual bubbles. Would keep a fellow from getting bored in there as well....... mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Julio MacWilliams wrote: > > I have been thinking about making a rescue bag that would > keep a person warm and afloat at sea. My initial idea was to > use one of those 'space blanket' bags, with big sponsons on > the side. The idea of the bubble wrap is good improvement, it > would also protect the body when hitting rocks. ___________________________________________________________________ Julio, Did you consider the bubble type reflective foil blanket product used for wraping the outside of hot water tanks to reduce heat loss among other things? You are thinking of a body pod much like the hang glider pilots insert their torsos into while suspended under the hang glider? Cool! Hope this helps, as the material will offer you some bouyancy as well as insulation properties. Just seal it into the shape you want. It should roll up into a small enough survival package I would imagine. Hope this is of value to you. Regards, Philip *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Julio MacWilliams wrote: > > I have been thinking about making a rescue bag that would > keep a person warm and afloat at sea. My initial idea was to > use one of those 'space blanket' bags, with big sponsons on > the side. The idea of the bubble wrap is good improvement, it > would also protect the body when hitting rocks. Have not looked at a "survival suit," such as used by commercial fishers, in quite a while, but I recall that the skin is integral with the insulation (closed cell foam?). Of course, this makes for a very bulky package, and not practical for sea kayak use. I believe survival suits seal around the face, allowing breathing and seeing, but not much else, so as to reduce heat loss. Maybe a tube made of survival suit material with a headpiece that seals at the neck, inasmuch as most of us wear some sort of headgear. Still need some serious flotation in the upper torso/head/shoulders area to keep a semiconscious person's head out of the water. The flotation could be inflatable type, to hold down the uninflated volume. Still be bulky, but not as bad as commercial survival suits, which have articulated arms and legs. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
There may be an entrepreneurial opportunity here. We seem to have a need for a non-compressible insulation material that will keep the insulating air from being squeezed out from under a dry suit and keep the insulating air from collecting near the feet of the paddler and holding the paddler upside down in the water. Although I have never tried it, I am told that extensive paddling in a head down, feet up position is not a recommended practice and may be anti-survival. I will leave the experimental proof to others. ---------- Application of a dose of Canadian Ballast Rocks (TM) would certainly solve that problem. If you had a problem with flatulence whilst emmersed, they would also help prevent you from becoming airborne once you reached shore, particularily if one of your smoking friends was about. I frequently carry small, rounded Canadian Ballast Rocks (TM) in my pocket for emergency use. However, this tends to pull my pants down. My understanding is this is how the infamous butt crack was invented. I try to avoid this though, because of the draft and occassional risque remarks. To circumvent this problem I've resorted to suspenders but they tend to dig into my shoulders and pull my pants up much higher than is comfortable. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Clyde Sisler wrote: Application of a dose of Canadian Ballast Rocks (TM) would certainly solve that problem. ... Actually that is the answer. In my younger days I worked as a commercial diver (hard hat). When people used the old canvas coffins (brass hats and canvas and rubber suits you see in movies), they wore lead shoes (17lbs each). The back of the legs could also be laced up to keep your feet from 'blowing up' and rapidly returning you to the surface, which is contraindicated. I don't know about the Gortex dry suits since the dry suits I've used were either canvas (see above) or neoprene, however, you lose most (I believe it 80%) of your body heat through your head. When I was in the water for hours I had a dry head (because of the gear I was using) and although I got cold, it was manageable. My suggestion would be to wear whatever is most comfortable for the main activity, under your dry suit, and then wear a hat. Warmth from a dry suit does not come from its' insulation, it comes from the fact that you're dry. Water transfers heat something like a 100 times faster than air. So if you're wet from sweat inside your dry suit because you wore too many clothes, you'll end up colder than if you wore less and sweated less. IMHO. (When standing around on deck we used to vent our dry suits by either holding the neck ring open or the wrist gaskets open to prevent the build up of sweat inside the suit.) Sharky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 01:16 PM 1/5/99 -0500, Sisler, Clyde wrote: >Application of a dose of Canadian Ballast Rocks (TM) would certainly solve >that problem. >I frequently carry small, rounded Canadian Ballast Rocks (TM) in my pocket >for emergency use. However, this tends to pull my pants down. >To >circumvent this problem I've resorted to suspenders but they tend to dig >into my shoulders and pull my pants up much higher than is comfortable. I hear that those sorts of things don't happen with those imitation (non Canadian) ballast rocks. Might give those a try (John LeBlanc was setting up for bringing them in?). They're less expensive, too (John Winters has larceny in his heart...) <grin> Hank Hays *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
How about blowing styrofoam peanuts into the suit? The air spaces would make the insulation breathable.... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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