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From: Karen H. <magpi_at_access1.net>
subject: [Paddlewise] ?? for old salts and old farts...
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 16:00:35 -0800
I'm enjoying all the bios and am impressed by all the experience we've
got on this list! 

I was wondering, and maybe you people who have been involved with
kayaking forever can tell me... is there any person, or any
technological advance that's made a major contribution to the sport, or
changed it in a big way? In other words, is there a kayakers "Hall of
Fame"? Are there names or events we newbies should become familiar with?
And what do you think... is kayaking (as a sport) still in it's infancy,
and what changes might there be in the future? (The bike pedaled
sit-on-top comes to mind... I think it's a Hobie.)

Hope I'm not getting WAY out there, but I'm kinda curious....  :-)
 
Karen 
-- 
Karen Hancock
San Clemente, CA
magpi_at_access1.net
949/487-2602
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From: <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] ?? for old salts and old farts...
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 23:02:06 -0800
Karen H. wrote:
> 
> I'm enjoying all the bios and am impressed by all the experience we've
> got on this list!
> 
> I was wondering, and maybe you people who have been involved with
> kayaking forever can tell me... is there any person, or any
> technological advance that's made a major contribution to the sport, or
> changed it in a big way? In other words, is there a kayakers "Hall of
> Fame"? Are there names or events we newbies should become familiar with?

Good question, Karen.  In the folding kayak realm I would thing these
three pivotal figures who I know personally and my reasons why:

1.  Dr. Hannes Lindemann.  His crossing of the Atlantic in a Klepper
double in the mid-60s was not only a major feat that put a kayaker on
the front page of a then major world wide magazine, LIFE, but also gave
a great impetus to selling folding kayaks in the US and other countries
for 20 years afterwards.

2.  Dieter Stiller.  Dieter ran Klepper's US operation for several
decades until 1995 or so.  He introduced thousands upon thousands of
people to the sport and was a conduit to the great number of military
sales here and in other NATO countries.

3. Doug Simpson.  Co-founder of Feathercraft in the late 1970s and early
1980s.  He worked for MEC (the Canadian REI) and had an idea of a better
folding kayak.  He built his first prototype using aluminum tubes and an
adjustable set of wooden crosspieces to test various shapes; the
prototype's skin was made from dress material by a girl friend.  He
started production as a squatter in an abandoned industrial area in the
middle of Vancouver (fascinating story).  Doug's designs and innovations
have spouted out a number of Feathercraft models that have helped
folding kayaks get a great deal of respect.

In the hard shell world I can cite two individuals who I know well here
on this coast:

Chuck Sutherland.  Chuck lived in New York and now resides near
Philadelphia. I consider Chuck a kind of Johnny Appleseed for paddling
on the East Coast as he has done much to popularize the sport and to
promote safety.  He once ran the SeaKayaking subcommittee of the ACA. 
Was instrumental in starting Anorak, a seminal kayaking newletter here
on the East Coast.

Ken Fink.  Ken was one of the originators of the first sea kayaking
symposium...the LL Bean Symposium.  He also was one of the early
importers of British kayaks.  A great instructor and speaker.  A highly
respected individual and often controversial...very strong in his
opinions.

I am sure there are more but these guys make any list, I think.
 
> And what do you think... is kayaking (as a sport) still in it's infancy,
> and what changes might there be in the future? (The bike pedaled
> sit-on-top comes to mind... I think it's a Hobie.)

It probably has plateaued.  I doubt that there are more than 200,000 sea
kayakers if that.  Compare that to other major recreational sports and
the figure is quite modest.  One way you can figure out the universe for
a sport is to take the leading publication, if has been around awhile,
and say that it has probably penetrated 10 per cent of the readership. 
I think Sea Kayaker has around 20,000 to 25,000 readers (the figure has
to be published as part of a statement of ownership and circulation). 
So that figure.

The sea kayaking trade had its own trade group but for reasons of
membership and costs, it recently merged with a more general paddling
trade association. This is either a sign of just not having the numbers
to support an industrial group or that the organization wasn't doing its
job.  I think it was (I was a member for awhile) so you see...the
industry isn't all that big.

ralph diaz
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

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From: <wanewman_at_uswest.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] ?? for old salts and old farts...
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:34:05 -0600
Hi Ralph,

As a coauthor of soon to be released kayak books I am of course praying for a
growing number of kayakers so that with royalties, maybe in ten years time I
can get my labor rate for four months of full time work up to the current
minimum wage!  I have not seen any figures on the number of sea kayakers in the
US, but if anyone on the list has the demographic info I would be very
interested.  The sport may or may not have reached a steady-state number of
participants on the Coasts, but in the Midwest it seems to still be growing
rapidly.  When Sarah and I talked to store owners all over the Great Lakes the
typical response was that they were seeing boat sales increase by 25 to 30%
each year during the last five years.  Also many of their customers who has
started out in small open cockpit boats (a Kiwi for example) on inland waters
were getting hooked on kayaking, improving their skills and coming back after a
season or two to buy a sea kayak.

rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote:

> Karen H. wrote:
> >
> > I'm enjoying all the bios and am impressed by all the experience we've
> > got on this list!
> >
> > I was wondering, and maybe you people who have been involved with
> > kayaking forever can tell me... is there any person, or any
> > technological advance that's made a major contribution to the sport, or
> > changed it in a big way? In other words, is there a kayakers "Hall of
> > Fame"? Are there names or events we newbies should become familiar with?
>
> Good question, Karen.  In the folding kayak realm I would thing these
> three pivotal figures who I know personally and my reasons why:
>
> 1.  Dr. Hannes Lindemann.  His crossing of the Atlantic in a Klepper
> double in the mid-60s was not only a major feat that put a kayaker on
> the front page of a then major world wide magazine, LIFE, but also gave
> a great impetus to selling folding kayaks in the US and other countries
> for 20 years afterwards.
>
> 2.  Dieter Stiller.  Dieter ran Klepper's US operation for several
> decades until 1995 or so.  He introduced thousands upon thousands of
> people to the sport and was a conduit to the great number of military
> sales here and in other NATO countries.
>
> 3. Doug Simpson.  Co-founder of Feathercraft in the late 1970s and early
> 1980s.  He worked for MEC (the Canadian REI) and had an idea of a better
> folding kayak.  He built his first prototype using aluminum tubes and an
> adjustable set of wooden crosspieces to test various shapes; the
> prototype's skin was made from dress material by a girl friend.  He
> started production as a squatter in an abandoned industrial area in the
> middle of Vancouver (fascinating story).  Doug's designs and innovations
> have spouted out a number of Feathercraft models that have helped
> folding kayaks get a great deal of respect.
>
> In the hard shell world I can cite two individuals who I know well here
> on this coast:
>
> Chuck Sutherland.  Chuck lived in New York and now resides near
> Philadelphia. I consider Chuck a kind of Johnny Appleseed for paddling
> on the East Coast as he has done much to popularize the sport and to
> promote safety.  He once ran the SeaKayaking subcommittee of the ACA.
> Was instrumental in starting Anorak, a seminal kayaking newletter here
> on the East Coast.
>
> Ken Fink.  Ken was one of the originators of the first sea kayaking
> symposium...the LL Bean Symposium.  He also was one of the early
> importers of British kayaks.  A great instructor and speaker.  A highly
> respected individual and often controversial...very strong in his
> opinions.
>
> I am sure there are more but these guys make any list, I think.
>
> > And what do you think... is kayaking (as a sport) still in it's infancy,
> > and what changes might there be in the future? (The bike pedaled
> > sit-on-top comes to mind... I think it's a Hobie.)
>
> It probably has plateaued.  I doubt that there are more than 200,000 sea
> kayakers if that.  Compare that to other major recreational sports and
> the figure is quite modest.  One way you can figure out the universe for
> a sport is to take the leading publication, if has been around awhile,
> and say that it has probably penetrated 10 per cent of the readership.
> I think Sea Kayaker has around 20,000 to 25,000 readers (the figure has
> to be published as part of a statement of ownership and circulation).
> So that figure.
>
> The sea kayaking trade had its own trade group but for reasons of
> membership and costs, it recently merged with a more general paddling
> trade association. This is either a sign of just not having the numbers
> to support an industrial group or that the organization wasn't doing its
> job.  I think it was (I was a member for awhile) so you see...the
> industry isn't all that big.
>
> ralph diaz
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
> PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
> Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com
> "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ***************************************************************************
> PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List
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> Subscriptions:   paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net
> Website:         http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/
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From: John Winters <735769_at_ican.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] ?? for old salts and old farts...
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 06:39:37 -0500
Ralph wrote;

--->Good question, Karen.  In the folding kayak realm I would thing these
>three pivotal figures who I know personally and my reasons why:
>
(SNIP of influentila paddlers)


I would include Dr. Peregrine Inverbon.

Others that have contributed to the study and promotion of native boats
include Eugene Arima, John Brand, John Heath, Howard Chappelle, George
Dyson, Wolfgang Brinck  and Harvey Golden.

For modern boats John Goodman stands out as a pioneer.

As a promoter of the sport John Dowd must rank highly.

Little recognised but still an inspiration were L.Francis Herreschoff and
Norman L. Skene.


>> And what do you think... is kayaking (as a sport) still in it's infancy,
>> and what changes might there be in the future? (The bike pedaled
>> sit-on-top comes to mind... I think it's a Hobie.)
>
(SNIP)
>
>The sea kayaking trade had its own trade group but for reasons of
>membership and costs, it recently merged with a more general paddling
>trade association. This is either a sign of just not having the numbers
>to support an industrial group or that the organization wasn't doing its
>job.  I think it was (I was a member for awhile) so you see...the
>industry isn't all that big.

I agree with Ralph although we may not yet have reached a plateau. We have
no way of knowing how many of the buyers of cheaper poly boats will move up
the ladder. Most poly boat (cheaper smaller boats) owners do not
participate in clubs etc. so one has a hard time getting a read on them.

To put some perspective on the canoe/kayak "industry", a medium sized power
boat builder like Boston Whaler does more gross business than the entire
canoe/kayak business.

Those who would like to know something about me can read my modest bio at
http://home.ican.net/~735769/jwinters.htm  No sense cluttering up your
E-Mail.

Cheers,
John Winters
Redwing Designs
Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft
http://home.ican.net/~735769/

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From: <JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] ?? for old salts and old farts...
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:47:27 EST
In a message dated 2/10/99 6:58:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, 735769_at_ican.net
writes:

<< 
 I agree with Ralph although we may not yet have reached a plateau [in sea
kayak growth].  We have no way of knowing how many of the buyers of cheaper
poly boats will move up the ladder. Most poly boat (cheaper smaller boats)
owners do not
 participate in clubs etc. so one has a hard time getting a read on them.
  >>

This growth may also be heavily regionalized, as well, skewing the data
further out of our ability to monitor it.  One medium sized Eastern Mountain
Sports (EMS) store in Annapolis, Maryland last year sold --- if memory serves,
and it doesn't do that well --- about 300 "sea kayaks" last year.  These were
mostly in the entry level plastic boat market, and many of the boats they sell
would not qualify in any clear definition of the term "sea kayak", but there
are people out there buying this stuff.  Hopefully, it's not the" fashion
statement" market we've had in the last few years, and there's probably a lot
of recyclable plastic out there with nothing to do, but there's still some
slow growth apparent locally --- the Chesapeake Bay region.

Jack Martin
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From: <KayakherSC_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] ?? for old salts and old farts...
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:48:59 EST
In a message dated 2/10/99 7:21:56 AM EST, 735769_at_ican.net writes:

<< We have no way of knowing how many of the buyers of cheaper poly boats will
move up the ladder. Most poly boat (cheaper smaller boats) owners do not
 participate in clubs etc. so one has a hard time getting a read on them >>

Hey John,  Most of our active club members here paddle rotomolded boats.
Maybe we can participate in a study?  :)  Sandy
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