I woke up this morning, turned on my computer in my office and found various Paddlewise postings by Dave Kruger, Rich Mitchell and Jack Martin and find myself agreeing with them on everything they said. They must be smart. :-) Re: what to wear, wet suit, dry suit------ Dave Kruger's outfit (Goretex jacket; neoprene farmer john) is right on as a great insurance policy at minimum financial outlay and with maximum flexibility. I too have the same Kokatat Goretex top. It is one of the least expensive Goretex jackets available for any format and has those latex wrists that keep water out very effectively. Like Dave, I prefer the neoprene (Kokatat actually has switched to Darlexx Thermalastic I believe because the material absorbs less water than neoprene while being as, if not more, snug) neck to the latex gasket neck for the same reason...venting. For a total investment of around US$280, you have an outfit that can be used in any condition of air and water temperature. Shed the jacket in 75 degree air temperature. Wear layers under it in colder conditions. I use mine over a Polartec Watersports suit made by Henderson. I prefer it to neoprene farmer johns (which I also used early on) because of less restriction, greater breatability and having protection over my arms that a farmer John doesn't give. But that brings up your costs about another US$100. I also have a coated nylon dry suit (Stohlquist). And I get funny here. While I accept Goretex for a jacket, I still don't trust it for a dry suit. With a jacket that is going to let water in a bit anyway via the non-latex neck and via the waist (snug but not watertight), I can accept that the Goretex may not work well at some point. In a dry suit where your whole existence depends on it not letting anything in, goretex failure would be cathastrophic. I think a fully coated suit is warmer than a Goretex one since it does not breath. The action in Goretex that lets body moisture through per force lets out body heat...that is the way the process works. If I am wearing my dry suit, conditions are really cold and I want to keep in body heat. Of course, it may also be that I have a perfectly good suit and want to justify not spending $500 for a Goretex replacement. :-) Jack Martin is right about testing the outfit out under controlled conditions. He is also right about the cheap neoprene gloves. I think that the cheap ones found in outdoor shop's fishing departments for US$20 (I can't believe he found them for under $10!!) are better than the higher tech ones sold in paddle shops for US$40-60. The cheapos are more flexible and, paradoxically, better suited for paddling I think. Re extra sponsons--- Rich describes the ones that Long Haul Products makes pretty well. They are quite different from the sponsons seen built into folding kayaks. They are in a flat sheet rather than round and comprise of two narrow round tubes. The air volume looks like about half that of an ordinary Klepper sponson from the Aerius I. The Klepper Quattro's second set of sponsons are much more voluminous than the Long Haul ones. In the Quattro, the second set of sponsons, when inflated, drastically change the shape of the hull, rounding out or shallowing out the hard chines. It makes the boat much more stable but with what feels like more drag. It helps the Klepper for sailing but hinders it for paddling. The Long Haul ones probably will not round out the hull as much because they are shallower. I am not certain what the gain would be in having them in a Feathercraft K-1. It would be interesting to see. It would give the boat a greater sense of stability but it would change other handling traits. Rounding out a hull and its chines changes stability. That is how the Khatsalano operates in its convertible version...the one that has small sponsons that you can inflate or not inflate. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > Re: what to wear, wet suit, dry suit------ > > [This] outfit (Goretex jacket; neoprene farmer john) is right on > as a great insurance policy at minimum financial outlay and with maximum > flexibility. [snip] > I also have a coated nylon dry suit (Stohlquist). And I get funny > here. While I accept Goretex for a jacket, I still don't trust it for a > dry suit. With a jacket that is going to let water in a bit anyway via > the non-latex neck and via the waist (snug but not watertight), I can > accept that the Goretex may not work well at some point. In a dry suit > where your whole existence depends on it not letting anything in, > goretex failure would be catastrophic. I think a fully coated suit is > warmer than a Goretex one since it does not breath. The action in > Goretex that lets body moisture through perforce lets out body > heat...that is the way the process works. If I am wearing my dry suit, > conditions are really cold and I want to keep in body heat. Of course, > it may also be that I have a perfectly good suit and want to justify not > spending $500 for a Goretex replacement. :-) Hmmmm, Ralph, you are making me think again, darn it!! <G> I don't own nor have I used a fully coated dry suit, so my comments may be off the mark. Nonetheless, I think if I had access to one, and an equivalent Goretex unit, I might use the latter, and expect to be warmer, *in the long run.* Here's my rationale, though I'd be interested in the experience of others (since I have none with fully-coated stuff): Ralph makes a good observation: that evaporative cooling from body perspiration, passing through the Goretex, will increase cooling. In my experience, most of my sweating occurs when I am working hard, and I am *plenty warm* at those times. So evaporative cooling is not a problem then. Sometimes, after working up a sweat, and stopping for a while (lunch, etc.), I cool off a little. Usually I put on a warmer hat or something. During those rest breaks, the Goretex is still transpiring water, so evaporative cooling is a significant heat-transfer mechanism (re: conduction, anyway), but because I temporarily don some warmth, evaporative cooling is not a problem then, either. When I go back to paddling, I generate some warmth, and evaporative cooling is again not a problem. At the end of the day, my insulating garments are a little moist, but are still highly functional in insulating me, **because the Goretex has allowed my body moisture to escape.** That's where I think the Goretex would be vastly superior. In a fully coated garment, I think all my insulation would be a *lot* wetter, and I'd have to shed it while setting up camp and unpacking (etc.), and deal with drying it out somehow. The other factor which may negate any advantage the fully coated stuff might have is that rain, paddlesplash, etc., will wet the outside of either garment, giving lots of evaporative cooling from non-anthropogenic water. So, what is the experience of others? Is the fully coated stuff warmer, despite what I *think* will happen? (A good theory is just a good theory; experience judges theory.) -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: snip of Ralph's comments >Hmmmm, Ralph, you are making me think again, darn it!! <G> more snippage >Ralph makes a good observation: that evaporative cooling from body >perspiration, passing through the Goretex, will increase cooling. In my >experience, most of my sweating occurs when I am working hard, and I am >*plenty warm* at those times. So evaporative cooling is not a problem >then. Sometimes, after working up a sweat, and stopping for a while >(lunch, etc.), I cool off a little. Usually I put on a warmer hat or >something. During those rest breaks, the Goretex is still transpiring >water, so evaporative cooling is a significant heat-transfer mechanism (re: >conduction, anyway), but because I temporarily don some warmth, evaporative >cooling is not a problem then, either. When I go back to paddling, I >generate some warmth, and evaporative cooling is again not a problem. At >the end of the day, my insulating garments are a little moist, but are >still highly functional in insulating me, **because the Goretex has >allowed my body moisture to escape.** > >That's where I think the Goretex would be vastly superior. In a fully >coated garment, I think all my insulation would be a *lot* wetter, and I'd >have to shed it while setting up camp and unpacking (etc.), and deal with >drying it out somehow. > >The other factor which may negate any advantage the fully coated stuff >might have is that rain, paddlesplash, etc., will wet the outside of either >garment, giving lots of evaporative cooling from non-anthropogenic water. > >So, what is the experience of others? Is the fully coated stuff warmer, >despite what I *think* will happen? (A good theory is just a good theory; >experience judges theory.) I no longer own my coated dry suit, but it seems to me that it might have been a little bit warmer than my Goretex drysuit _while I was wearing it_, but the disadvantage of having all that extra moisture trapped in my insulating layers was quickly evident as soon as I took the drysuit off on cool or windy days. As long as I kept the drysuit sealed up tight I stayed warm..... wet, but warm. As DaveK mentioned in his post, I too am usually more than warm enough while I'm paddling, even at 15-20F (which is about where I draw the line for fun cold-water paddling). Overheating while paddling is often more of a concern for me. So while I'll agree that a fully coated suit may be warmer than a comparable Goretex suit, I don't think that the disparity is great enough to make a substantial difference and the benefit of having drier insulating layers when I peel out of the drysuit is more important to me - especially on multi-day trips. The slight difference in warmth is easily offset by simply adding an additional insulating layer under the drysuit. Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Seng wrote: > I no longer own my coated dry suit, but it seems to me that it might have > been a little bit warmer than my Goretex drysuit _while I was wearing it_, > but the disadvantage of having all that extra moisture trapped in my > insulating layers was quickly evident as soon as I took the drysuit off on > cool or windy days. As long as I kept the drysuit sealed up tight I stayed > warm..... wet, but warm. That _is_ the disadvantage of the fully coated vs. Goretex dry suit. Your insulation is wet when you strip the dry suit off. The wetness does not bother you while you have the coated dry suit on as long as it is wicking type insulation. You actually feel quite warm. On trips with people around me who are wearing the Goretex variety of dry suit, they seem to have a greater need to add something warm at rest or lunch breaks than I have. And, I know I am going to be challenged on this, I swear that you reach what I term a happy, relative level of humidity inside the suit where you don't get any wetter; your body adjusts. You are wet but the wetness remains warm; it does not feel cold as long as air is not passing over the insulation, which it isn't because you are air tight inside the suit. The great advantage of the Goretex is that moisture doesn't build up inside, albeit that letting off of internal steam is limited when you are in the cockpit of your kayak...afterall, the PFD won't allow internal moisture to get through it and you lower body is encasted inside the boat where moisture can't go anywhere. (Of course, you can opt not to wear a PFD and sprayskirt and then the Goretex suit would be fully functioning in letting off moisture while paddling. You probably don't need a PFD anyway as the air in the suit will make you as bouyant as the Michelin Man. Am I going to get in trouble with stating such things? :-) BTW, I have my tongue well in cheek here.) >From what you describe for yourself, I am talking to Dave Kruger, you are fine with the outfit you have, i.e. Goretex jacket and farmer john neoprene. If you want to achieve slightly better insulation and greater breathability, go for the Polartec watersport suit, but they do cost about US$180 or so. And for more warmth, add a vest of the same material. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
From:ralph diaz <snip> >(Of course, you can opt not to wear a PFD and sprayskirt and then the Goretex suit would be fully functioning in letting off moisture while paddling. You probably don't need a PFD anyway as the air in the suit will make you as bouyant as the Michelin Man. Am I going to get in trouble with stating such things? :-) BTW, I have my tongue well in cheek here.) ================ early today as i approached a tidal river that i paddle frequently, i mentally reviewed my equipment and realized that skirt and pfd were not with me. i was wearing a Goretex dry suit. slightly over 32 degree air, about 35 degree water, calm winds. i didn't see anyone from well before put in - to well after take out. total on water distance about 8 miles. it was an invigorating paddle and the Goretex wicked as it is designed to do. My assessment was that the ride was much more enjoyable than those when i wore the pfd and skirt. the pfd and skirt are back in the truck. i plan to use them. My answer to answer Ralph's question, ' Am I going to get in trouble with stating such things?'.... probably not.... but don't do it. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In all seriousness, several of my friends and I have forgotten to don PFDs when we are all bundled up in pile under dry suits for cold weather ww paddling. What is sort of embarassing is that on one occasion none of us noticed that one of us had forgotten his PFD until we stopped for lunch. Cheers, Richard Larry Bliven wrote: > From:ralph diaz > > <snip> > > >(Of course, you can opt not to wear a PFD and sprayskirt and then the > Goretex suit would be fully functioning in letting off moisture while > paddling. You probably don't need a PFD anyway as the air in the suit > will make you as bouyant as the Michelin Man. Am I going to get in > trouble with stating such things? :-) BTW, I have my tongue well in > cheek here.) > ================ > > early today as i approached a tidal river that i paddle frequently, i > mentally reviewed my equipment and realized that skirt and pfd were not with > me. i was wearing a Goretex dry suit. slightly over 32 degree air, about 35 > degree water, calm winds. i didn't see anyone from well before put in - to > well after take out. total on water distance about 8 miles. it was an > invigorating paddle and the Goretex wicked as it is designed to do. My > assessment was that the ride was much more enjoyable than those when i wore > the pfd and skirt. > > the pfd and skirt are back in the truck. i plan to use them. > > My answer to answer Ralph's question, ' Am I going to get in trouble with > stating such things?'.... probably not.... but don't do it. > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In my experience, paddling in ~50F water and 40-70F air temps with either a coated nylon or a gortex dry-suit, the gortex is vastly superior, much more comfortable. For me, the problem with coated nylon is that it doesn't breath, and I overheat. You still have to have insulating clothing on under the drysuit to prevent hypothermia if you end up being immersed any length of time, and because of that I end up being overheated in a garment that doesn't breath. I end up having to drain perspiration out of the ankle and wrist gaskets periodically with the coated nylon. The goretex hasn't failed me yet as far as being waterproof. I test it quite thoroughly with regular rescue practice and instruction, as well as practice rolling and surfing. My current goretex drysuit is 5 years old. Dave Carlson Dave Kruger wrote: > > rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > Re: what to wear, wet suit, dry suit------ > > > > [This] outfit (Goretex jacket; neoprene farmer john) is right on > > as a great insurance policy at minimum financial outlay and with maximum > > flexibility. [snip] > > > I also have a coated nylon dry suit (Stohlquist). And I get funny > > here. While I accept Goretex for a jacket, I still don't trust it for a > > dry suit. With a jacket that is going to let water in a bit anyway via > > the non-latex neck and via the waist (snug but not watertight), I can > > accept that the Goretex may not work well at some point. In a dry suit > > where your whole existence depends on it not letting anything in, > > goretex failure would be catastrophic. I think a fully coated suit is > > warmer than a Goretex one since it does not breath. The action in > > Goretex that lets body moisture through perforce lets out body > > heat...that is the way the process works. If I am wearing my dry suit, > > conditions are really cold and I want to keep in body heat. Of course, > > it may also be that I have a perfectly good suit and want to justify not > > spending $500 for a Goretex replacement. :-) > > Hmmmm, Ralph, you are making me think again, darn it!! <G> > > I don't own nor have I used a fully coated dry suit, so my comments may be > off the mark. Nonetheless, I think if I had access to one, and an > equivalent Goretex unit, I might use the latter, and expect to be warmer, > *in the long run.* Here's my rationale, though I'd be interested in the > experience of others (since I have none with fully-coated stuff): > > Ralph makes a good observation: that evaporative cooling from body > perspiration, passing through the Goretex, will increase cooling. In my > experience, most of my sweating occurs when I am working hard, and I am > *plenty warm* at those times. So evaporative cooling is not a problem > then. Sometimes, after working up a sweat, and stopping for a while > (lunch, etc.), I cool off a little. Usually I put on a warmer hat or > something. During those rest breaks, the Goretex is still transpiring > water, so evaporative cooling is a significant heat-transfer mechanism (re: > conduction, anyway), but because I temporarily don some warmth, evaporative > cooling is not a problem then, either. When I go back to paddling, I > generate some warmth, and evaporative cooling is again not a problem. At > the end of the day, my insulating garments are a little moist, but are > still highly functional in insulating me, **because the Goretex has > allowed my body moisture to escape.** > > That's where I think the Goretex would be vastly superior. In a fully > coated garment, I think all my insulation would be a *lot* wetter, and I'd > have to shed it while setting up camp and unpacking (etc.), and deal with > drying it out somehow. > > The other factor which may negate any advantage the fully coated stuff > might have is that rain, paddlesplash, etc., will wet the outside of either > garment, giving lots of evaporative cooling from non-anthropogenic water. > > So, what is the experience of others? Is the fully coated stuff warmer, > despite what I *think* will happen? (A good theory is just a good theory; > experience judges theory.) > > -- > Dave Kruger > Astoria, OR > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I use a coated nylon rain jacket for protection in wet weather. If the temperatures are in the 30s and 40s F, I'm fine. However, if the temperatures are in the 50s and 60s F, I can end up almost as wet as if I had been out in the rain with no jacket. I stay warm as long as I'm active, but then I need a complete change of clothes before I begin to cool down. Bob -------------------------------------------------- Robert C. Perkins, Ph.D. Associate Dean for Research and Planning Methodist College, Fayetteville, NC 28311 910-630-7037 rperkins_at_methodist.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/13/99 1:37:30 PM EST, dkruger_at_pacifier.com writes: << That's where I think the Goretex would be vastly superior. In a fully coated garment, I think all my insulation would be a *lot* wetter, and I'd have to shed it while setting up camp and unpacking (etc.), and deal with drying it out somehow. >> You are right. I used a Goretex Dry suit for two week trip in SE Alaska. It rained for eight days. I left the suit on to set up camp at the end of eight hours of paddling and stayed warm and dry. Each morning the air was filled cries and profanity as my paddling partner pulled on his wet and cold wet suit. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
From: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com Date sent: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:49:08 -0800 To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: [Paddlewise] Me, too :-) Ralph Diaz writes --- > > I also have a coated nylon dry suit (Stohlquist). And I get funny > here. While I accept Goretex for a jacket, I still don't trust it for a > dry suit. With a jacket that is going to let water in a bit anyway via > the non-latex neck and via the waist (snug but not watertight), I can > accept that the Goretex may not work well at some point. In a dry suit > where your whole existence depends on it not letting anything in, > goretex failure would be cathastrophic. Not following the logic here, Ralph. Are you concerned with the notion of the GoreTex --- the laminate --- failing or the drysuit failing? I share your second concern, and wear the same Henderson suit as you do --- what used to be called Polartec 2000S and now Thermal Stretch --- under my GoreTex dry suit for its dry insulation value as well as its ability to serve as a marginal wetsuit if a seal fails. I floated around in this combination in 40 degree F. water for about 20 minutes the other day to cool down --- air temps in the 55 degree F. range that day --- and was very comfortable. Don't understand your concern about a "Gore-Tex failure" being "catastrophic". Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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