>> I have no personal experience with foot pumps, but the thread has been very interesting, and since I usually paddle alone (I know, I know....) I've begun to think I should seriously consider installing one. How much weight does a foot pump, installed, add to the boat? As a senior citizen (hat eto think it, but it's true) my Romany 16, which now weights almost 70 lbs, is already about as heavy as I want to carry around, lift onto the top of the van, etc. - Bill Hansen >> The Whale Compac 50, which I think is similar to the Henderson Chimp, weighs 2 lb. Add hoses, strum box, and push plate, and I would guess the total to be 3-4 lb. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:52 AM 2/3/99 -0600, you wrote: > >>> >I have no personal experience with foot pumps, but the thread has been very >interesting, and since I usually paddle alone (I know, I know....) I've begun >to think I should seriously consider installing one. How much weight does a >foot pump, installed, add to the boat? As a senior citizen (hat eto think it, >but it's true) my Romany 16, which now weights almost 70 lbs, is already about >as heavy as I want to carry around, lift onto the top of the van, etc. - >>> > >The Whale Compac 50, which I think is similar to the Henderson Chimp, >weighs 2 lb. Add hoses, strum box, and push plate, and I would guess >the total to be 3-4 lb. > What interest me about all these post is , How often do you find yourself in a situation where a hand pump used properly would not work or a buddy could not assist in emptying your kayak of water rather going to all the trouble of buying and mounting a foot pump.The few times I have capsized and missed a roll and did a wet exit I could either reenter and roll or empty my kayak of most of the water and climb back in with only a few gallons to pump out? Unless yall are some of those kayakers that have solid water right now and just want to talk about it when you can't paddle right now. I have tried deck mounted pumps foot pumps and hand pumps and have stuck with a hand pump, which has less maintenance than the other two.I like gadgets just like every one else seems to but the less complicated you go the less that can go wrong. Do you really find your selfs fallen out of you kayaks that much? It would seem that if you spent the money on bracing lessons you would be better off. I don't mean to sound like a party pooper but with proper skills and common sense you should not need a pump very often. Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dana; I actually do find myself paddling in conditions fairly often that could make paddlefloat and assisted rescues very difficult. But then I contend that many paddlers also find themselves in situations that could become challenging and just don't know it. The only difference with a skilled paddler and an unskilled one is that the more skilled paddler can paddle in safely in more extreme conditions than the unskilled. If I remember correctly Dana, you paddle in Florida where the water is considerably warmer than it is here in Washington. I have never fallen out of nor have I bailed out of my seakayak in combat conditions. I have fallen over however in severe conditions where an assisted rescue, not to mention a paddlefloat rescue, would be very hard to accomplish. I have also had to do rescues and emergency towing (anchored rescues) in severe conditions and I don't relish it. If the persons being rescued had had a re-enter and roll and the ability to empty their boats while getting underway it would have been much much faster and much safer. I come from (and teach in) the school of "learn to take care of yourself". I am also well beyond learning how to brace better. I am more into actually trying some of these scenarios, learning what does work and what doesn't and not just theorizing about them. Anyone who feels they can empty a boat with a hand pump in severe conditions as well as with a foot pump is wrong. Period. Remember, if the conditions are bad enough that a person has been knocked over, then those conditions are still there while they are trying to get back into and empty their boats. And, no matter what anyone says, it is much harder to re-enter and empty a boat than it is to not fall over in the first place. I doubt there was anyone described in the book 'Deep Trouble', for instance, who expected to be fighting for their lives while emparking on their paddle. Why do people persist in advocating mediocrity? Sure, work on your braces but also perfect your roll, both sides, bombproof and in combat conditions and then choose whether or not to even carry a pump, but don't suggest to people (the vast majority of whom have never seriously challenged themselves while paddling) that they are likely to be able to save themselves in the event of a mishap. It all boils down to this: Whatever rescue system you use, practice it in combat conditions and not just in the pool or calm water. Also, I have had foot pumps in my boats for years and they have far less maintainance involved with caring for them than does a hand pump. I have had hand pumps fail. I have never had a footpump fail. I have also forgoten my hand pump before - can't be done with an installed foot pump. I probably wouldn't be so hot and bothered by this subject if I hadn't have taught a number of advanced rescue/rough water rescue coarses. John Winskill dldecker_at_se.mediaone.net wrote: > What interest me about all these post is , How often do you find yourself > in a situation where a hand pump used properly would not work or a buddy > could not assist in emptying your kayak of water rather going to all the > trouble of buying and mounting a foot pump. Do you really find your selfs fallen out of > you kayaks that much? It would seem that if you spent the money on bracing > lessons you would be better off. I don't mean to sound like a party pooper > but with proper skills and common sense > you should not need a pump very often. > > Dana > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John C. Winskill wrote: "Anyone who > feels they can empty a boat with a hand pump in severe conditions as > well as with a foot pump is wrong. Period. Remember, if the conditions > are bad enough that a person has been knocked over, then those > conditions are still there while they are trying to get back into and > empty their boats. And, no matter what anyone says, it is much harder > to re-enter and empty a boat than it is to not fall over in the first > place. I doubt there was anyone described in the book 'Deep Trouble', > for instance, who expected to be fighting for their lives while > emparking on their paddle. Why do people persist in advocating > mediocrity? Sure, work on your braces but also perfect your roll, both > sides, bombproof and in combat conditions and then choose whether or not > to even carry a pump,....." _______________________________________________________________________________ John, I most certainly respect your observations and experience and consequently I would ask of you, that in light of Laurie Ford's experiences as well as yours, why is it that an electric bilge pump fails to find popularity amongst North American Kayakers as it does in Australia, New Zealand and Tasmania? Laurie Ford writes in his article on Electric Bilge Pumps http://www.tassie.net.au/~lford/epumps.htm "Back in 1979 it seemed to me that I needed some means of getting water out of a kayak, without taking my hands off my paddle. Back in those days there weren't many options of any sorts of pumps for kayaks. There was a hand pump which was fitted behind the cockpit, but which I considered fairly useless. I used to read about people demonstrating this sort of pump in a swimming pool - but that's not where I intended to do all my paddling. If conditions were so bad that I'd capsize in the first place, then I hardly thought I was going to get back in the kayak and start pumping out with one hand - I'd need both hands for supporting. I dismissed hand pumps as out of the question - despite world wide acceptance of them. There were some foot pumps about at that time - but they were only designed to remove dribbles of water that might get in through a spray deck....." (From my Bass Strait Trip report) "Slept in and missed the last of the tide, so walked the full length of the beach to Stackies Bight, till 2.00pm when the tide was again in the right direction. Not that the tide would be much help, but at least it wouldn't be assisting the 25 - 30 knot winds that were still whipping up big seas from the west. Alf was a little doubtful that it was really suitable weather for rounding Cape Frankland, but after two nights in the caravan I felt I would get fat and lazy if I stayed another night. A couple of hours later I was regretting this decision, particularly as the forecast for the next day had been for moderating conditions. The seas off Cape Frankland were huge, there is no other word to describe it. I have been out in big seas off the south-west coast before, and tried out a 50 knot gale in Bass Strait off Low Head - but this was terrifying. The westerly gale was meeting a shallow bottom and a 6 knot tide, and it took all my concentration to hang in there. At the bottom of the swells I was looking up a 60 degree mountain, a good 40 feet high, taking 8 to 10 paddle strokes to reach the top, then having the bow drop about 8 feet down the other side before hitting the water again. Usually about half-way up the slope the top would topple and a wall of white water would come careering down to check your upward rise, often flattening you along the rear deck. Progress was slow, it was imperative to keep at least half a mile off shore - any closer and the Longboat would have been fibreglass splinters amongst the breakers in the shallow water. I was sort of ferry-gliding along the shore, rounding up into the worst breakers, then bearing away again. I would have dearly loved to whip out the camera to photograph the conditions, but for three hours was not game to even take one hand off the paddle for more than a second, and then only to flick the pump switch on or off." Try using a hand pump in these conditions! Laurie Ford John, knowing that a foot pump would serve as great back up, why would an electric pump system not be considered the more right thing and more popular thing to do? Curious to know given the severity of conditions the ocean can dish out. Best Regards, Philip *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Because they are not available in paddling stores. I went through a lot of trouble and trial/error to install my Rule500. I do not think that the average American is willing to do any experimentation in his/her nice looking fiberglass boat. If anyone comes out with an electric bilge pump than can be installed in *any* kayak within minutes, and has leak proof battery compartments where the batteries can be replaced easily (alkaline batteries), he/she would win the American market. For starters, installing the pump, the outlet fitting with hose, and the waterproof switch is trivial. All this items are readily available at any marine supply store. But the problem is in the batteries. There are very few batteries that can be immersed, and those are heavy and expensive. Then, figuring out a way to charge the batteries while keeping the contacts from corroding is an even bigger challenge. I chose to use two 6V dry lantern batteries inside a tupperware food storage box, which is quite water tight. I made a hole through which I pass the cables, and sealed it with aquaseal (goop glue also works). The battery box goes under the aft float bag. With such an arrangement, I can empty a whole boat without bulkheads about 8 times in a row. - Julio > > I most certainly respect your observations and experience and consequently > I would ask of you, that in light of Laurie Ford's experiences as well > as yours, why is it that an electric bilge pump fails to find popularity > amongst North American Kayakers as it does in Australia, New Zealand and > Tasmania? > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Philip; I don't know of any kayak-specific electric pumps for sale in the US. I could well be wrong about this though. I have two electric pumps. One was marketed by a kayak company (Eddyline) a number of years ago but is no longer sold by them. I could never find a place to mount it and I'm a little nervous about fully trusting it because of its history. It was designed to mount in the boat and it has a rechargable battery pack. They stopped carrying them because of failures in the system. The other is a "D" cell operated pump that is self contained and simply sits in the bottom of the kayak. This pump is sold a number of places. The problem I have with it is that it is a bit too big to fit anywhere comfortably in my English style boats. I do use it when I paddle my Feathercraft K-1 but I paddle that boat very rarely. I don't really know if they aren't sold much in the US because no one ever buys them and it isn't cost effective or because of fear of legal reprisals in the event of failure. (We Americans are known for sueing at the drop of a hat.) I have purchased gear and had it sent to me from Australia before and I'd be willing to order a good, small pump if you have a lead. I'd appreciate a lead if you have one. A dependable electric pump would constitute the best of both worlds. Thanks John Winskill Philip Wylie wrote: > John, > > I most certainly respect your observations and experience and consequently > I would ask of you, that in light of Laurie Ford's experiences as well > as yours, why is it that an electric bilge pump fails to find popularity > amongst North American Kayakers as it does in Australia, New Zealand and > Tasmania? > > Laurie Ford writes in his article on Electric Bilge Pumps http://www.tassie.net.au/~lford/epumps.htm > > "Back in 1979 it seemed to me that I needed some means of getting water out of a kayak, without taking my > hands off my > paddle. Back in those days there weren't many options of any sorts of pumps for kayaks. There was a hand pump > which was > fitted behind the cockpit, but which I considered fairly useless. I used to read about people demonstrating > this sort of pump in a > swimming pool - but that's not where I intended to do all my paddling. If conditions were so bad that I'd > capsize in the first place, > then I hardly thought I was going to get back in the kayak and start pumping out with one hand - I'd need both > hands for > supporting. I dismissed hand pumps as out of the question - despite world wide acceptance of them. There were > some foot > pumps about at that time - but they were only designed to remove dribbles of water that might get in through a > spray deck....." > > (From my Bass Strait Trip report) > "Slept in and missed the last of the tide, so walked the full length of the beach to Stackies Bight, till > 2.00pm when the tide was > again in the right direction. Not that the tide would be much help, but at least it wouldn't be assisting the > 25 - 30 knot winds > that were still whipping up big seas from the west. Alf was a little doubtful that it was really suitable > weather for rounding Cape > Frankland, but after two nights in the caravan I felt I would get fat and lazy if I stayed another night. A > couple of hours later I was > regretting this decision, particularly as the forecast for the next day had been for moderating conditions. > The seas off Cape > Frankland were huge, there is no other word to describe it. I have been out in big seas off the south-west > coast before, and tried > out a 50 knot gale in Bass Strait off Low Head - but this was terrifying. The westerly gale was meeting a > shallow bottom and a 6 > knot tide, and it took all my concentration to hang in there. At the bottom of the swells I was looking up a > 60 degree mountain, a > good 40 feet high, taking 8 to 10 paddle strokes to reach the top, then having the bow drop about 8 feet down > the other side > before hitting the water again. Usually about half-way up the slope the top would topple and a wall of white > water would come > careering down to check your upward rise, often flattening you along the rear deck. Progress was slow, it was > imperative to > keep at least half a mile off shore - any closer and the Longboat would have been fibreglass splinters amongst > the breakers in > the shallow water. I was sort of ferry-gliding along the shore, rounding up into the worst breakers, then > bearing away again. I > would have dearly loved to whip out the camera to photograph the conditions, but for three hours was not game > to even take > one hand off the paddle for more than a second, and then only to flick the pump switch on or off." > > Try using a hand pump in these conditions! > Laurie Ford > > John, knowing that a foot pump would serve as great back up, why would an > electric pump system not be considered the more right thing and more > popular thing to do? Curious to know given the severity of conditions > the ocean can dish out. > > Best Regards, > > Philip *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John, The 'RULE 1000 GPH Bilge Pump which I bought at Hunter's RV & Marine should be easily available at most marine dealers. I paid $55.00 if I recall. Here are the specifications for the pump: FULL FLOW PERFORMANCE = 1000 Gallons/Hour 16.7 Gallons/Minute 3Ft. Head 700 Gallons/Hour 11.7 Gallons/Minute 12 Volt at 4 amps - five amp fuse- requiring 16 gauge stranded wire. Fittings required 1 1/8th" Hose, two hose clamps, 11/8" thu-hull fitting. It is designed with a water cooled motor thereby reducing operating temperatures-overheating is one of the major causes of pump failure. Also features a non-airlocking mechanism- which helps eliminate the number one problem of all centrifugal-type pumps. In addition to the RULE 1000 Pump, I also have a RULE model 35 Automatic Float switch which automatically activates the pump and a manuel overide on/off automatic controll as well which features an LED indicator. So then, the electric pump becomes your primary line of defence to combat flooding. A manuel back up system (still nice to have a contingency) would be secondary. Hope this helps. Best Regards, Philip ______________________________________________________________________ John C. Winskill wrote: > > Philip; > I don't know of any kayak-specific electric pumps for sale in the US. I > could well be wrong about this though. I have two electric pumps. One > was marketed by a kayak company (Eddyline) a number of years ago but is > no longer sold by them. I could never find a place to mount it and I'm > a little nervous about fully trusting it because of its history. It was > designed to mount in the boat and it has a rechargable battery pack. > They stopped carrying them because of failures in the system. The other > is a "D" cell operated pump that is self contained and simply sits in > the bottom of the kayak. This pump is sold a number of places. The > problem I have with it is that it is a bit too big to fit anywhere > comfortably in my English style boats. I do use it when I paddle my > Feathercraft K-1 but I paddle that boat very rarely. > I don't really know if they aren't sold much in the US because no one > ever buys them and it isn't cost effective or because of fear of legal > reprisals in the event of failure. (We Americans are known for sueing > at the drop of a hat.) > I have purchased gear and had it sent to me from Australia before and > I'd be willing to order a good, small pump if you have a lead. I'd > appreciate a lead if you have one. > A dependable electric pump would constitute the best of both worlds. > Thanks > John Winskill > > Philip Wylie wrote: > > > John, > > > > I most certainly respect your observations and experience and consequently > > I would ask of you, that in light of Laurie Ford's experiences as well > > as yours, why is it that an electric bilge pump fails to find popularity > > amongst North American Kayakers as it does in Australia, New Zealand and > > Tasmania? > > > > Laurie Ford writes in his article on Electric Bilge Pumps http://www.tassie.net.au/~lford/epumps.htm > > > > "Back in 1979 it seemed to me that I needed some means of getting water out of a kayak, without taking my > > hands off my > > paddle. Back in those days there weren't many options of any sorts of pumps for kayaks. There was a hand pump > > which was > > fitted behind the cockpit, but which I considered fairly useless. I used to read about people demonstrating > > this sort of pump in a > > swimming pool - but that's not where I intended to do all my paddling. If conditions were so bad that I'd > > capsize in the first place, > > then I hardly thought I was going to get back in the kayak and start pumping out with one hand - I'd need both > > hands for > > supporting. I dismissed hand pumps as out of the question - despite world wide acceptance of them. There were > > some foot > > pumps about at that time - but they were only designed to remove dribbles of water that might get in through a > > spray deck....." > > > > (From my Bass Strait Trip report) > > "Slept in and missed the last of the tide, so walked the full length of the beach to Stackies Bight, till > > 2.00pm when the tide was > > again in the right direction. Not that the tide would be much help, but at least it wouldn't be assisting the > > 25 - 30 knot winds > > that were still whipping up big seas from the west. Alf was a little doubtful that it was really suitable > > weather for rounding Cape > > Frankland, but after two nights in the caravan I felt I would get fat and lazy if I stayed another night. A > > couple of hours later I was > > regretting this decision, particularly as the forecast for the next day had been for moderating conditions. > > The seas off Cape > > Frankland were huge, there is no other word to describe it. I have been out in big seas off the south-west > > coast before, and tried > > out a 50 knot gale in Bass Strait off Low Head - but this was terrifying. The westerly gale was meeting a > > shallow bottom and a 6 > > knot tide, and it took all my concentration to hang in there. At the bottom of the swells I was looking up a > > 60 degree mountain, a > > good 40 feet high, taking 8 to 10 paddle strokes to reach the top, then having the bow drop about 8 feet down > > the other side > > before hitting the water again. Usually about half-way up the slope the top would topple and a wall of white > > water would come > > careering down to check your upward rise, often flattening you along the rear deck. Progress was slow, it was > > imperative to > > keep at least half a mile off shore - any closer and the Longboat would have been fibreglass splinters amongst > > the breakers in > > the shallow water. I was sort of ferry-gliding along the shore, rounding up into the worst breakers, then > > bearing away again. I > > would have dearly loved to whip out the camera to photograph the conditions, but for three hours was not game > > to even take > > one hand off the paddle for more than a second, and then only to flick the pump switch on or off." > > > > Try using a hand pump in these conditions! > > Laurie Ford > > > > John, knowing that a foot pump would serve as great back up, why would an > > electric pump system not be considered the more right thing and more > > popular thing to do? Curious to know given the severity of conditions > > the ocean can dish out. > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Philip *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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