>> A few years ago I managed to stick my finger under a 3hp circular saw while shifting my grip on a skinny piece of wood. I could feel the individual teeth cutting into my finger tip under the nail. That sensation was pretty gruesome. I didn't get cut too badly because with the super reflexes of the truly frightened, the saw went flying in one direction while me and my finger went in the other. Bled a lot though. >> It probably wasn't sharp enough. Last week my thumb slipped a little onto the blade of my carving knife, and I didn't even know I was wounded until I saw blood on my work. On the other hand, a few weeks earlier I got a sore arm by pinching my thumb between the handles of a pop rivet tool when the rivet gave way. I think the soreness was a consequence of violently pulling my hand away, though I don't recall doing it. The tool went flying into a snowbank, but that was deliberate. ;-) Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Anne- I built my first boat, a cedar strip Wee Lassie, from a boat written by Mac McCarthy. I had no wood working experience. Being female, I was never given the option of "shop" class when young. I had to reread the book many times to figure out some of it and I also called Mac a couple of times. I loved it! With every step accomplished, I learned a lot. I still can't believe that I built something so cool. Now I'm building a sea kayak. Bottom line: Go For It! Debbie Reeves Sandy Hook, NJ > ---------- > From: aburton1_at_maine.rr.com[SMTP:aburton1_at_maine.rr.com] > Reply To: aburton1_at_maine.rr.com > Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 1:23 PM > To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] New boat > > > > Has anyone seen / paddled (rowed) / built the new (kit) boat from > Chesapeake > Light Craft, the Annapolis Wherry? Though I have no demonstrated talent > for woodworking, I can follow directions and have a normal amount of > dexterity - > and I am longing to build this boat. For those of you who have built > boats, did > you have prior woodworking or building or engineering experience, or were > you a novice? > > Anne Burton > ************************************************************************** > * > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > ************************************************************************** > * > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Debbie - Thanks for the encouragement. I know what you mean about not being able to take "shop" ("ship" ?) class in school. It was simply unthinkable at the time. How I wish I could have taken wood shop, metal shop, auto shop.... Are you building (did you build) inside in a basement or shop, in a garage, or where? What is the ambient temperature? Did you need to be concerned with it being too low for the epoxy to cure properly? I'm thinking I will go for it (eventually), but need to figure out these environment basics - is the basement big enough, warm enough, humid (or not) enough, and is the Bilco door at the right angle to get it out....or is the garage an option, with nighttime temperatures anywhere from -10 to 30...Something to think about while waiting for kayaking season... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
aburton1_at_maine.rr.com wrote: > Are you building (did you build) inside in a basement or shop, in a > garage, or where? What > is the ambient temperature? Did you need to be concerned with it > being too low for the epoxy to cure properly? > > I'm thinking I will go for it (eventually), but need to figure out > these environment basics - is the > basement big enough, warm enough, humid (or not) enough, and is the > Bilco door at the > right angle to get it out....or is the garage an option, with nighttime > temperatures anywhere from -10 to 30...Something to think about while > waiting for kayaking season... I built a Pygmy kit in a buddy's shop, and tried to use fast hardener and spot heating of the work area to contend with cold temps (40 F). I eventually abandoned that concept and moved to a smaller, heated area (top of his pool table in a craft room). It was not heated all the time, but I could turn on the heat and warm the surfaces up for an hour or so before commencing with epoxy work. I **strongly** recommend working in an area which can be heated **before** and during the time you are working with resin and glass. It is not so critical it be heated during cure time, because the only effect is prolonged curing times. Why preheat, you ask? It's due to the fact that wood "breathes," so that when it is being warmed up, it out-gasses. If the wood is still in its warm-up phase when you lay on the resin, the wood will continue to out-gas as the resin cures, blowing a bunch of really nice pinholes, which are a real pain in the patooty to deal with later. The procedure I eventually developed involved preheating the room to 65 F for an hour, preparing the resin (kept in an 80 - 90 F heated plywood box [60 - 100 W light bulb] so it would be nicely fluid for good spreading and wetting of the glass), and then *turning off the heat* as I laid on resin. This caused the gases in the wood to slowly contract, sucking the resin *into* any potential pinhole areas, while maintaining a warm enough temperature for good resin flow. With the "fast" hardener (System 3), this gave 24 hour cures, even when the room dropped to 40 F overnight. If this sounds like a lot of hassle, then you have never had to deal with thick epoxy in the spreading stage. Think molasses on denim in winter and you'll know why I abandoned my "cold shop" epoxy work. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: > > The procedure I eventually developed involved preheating the room to 65 F > for an hour, preparing the resin (kept in an 80 - 90 F heated plywood box > [60 - 100 W light bulb] so it would be nicely fluid for good spreading and > wetting of the glass), and then *turning off the heat* as I laid on resin. > This caused the gases in the wood to slowly contract, sucking the resin > *into* any potential pinhole areas, I gotta tell you Dave, I have been on the rec.boats.building newsgroup for a while and have been reading about about the effects of a warm/cold environment on epoxy finishing, as well as books and sites on epoxy work and had not come across the cooling method. It is extremely clever. It probably relates to my oiling/waxing of wood parts on my furniture- I usually apply with fine sandpaper (6-8-1200) spinning very fast on my lathe causing a high temperature. The parts come out with a very hard finish which I had accounted as thining the oil and wax allowing better penetration. I think you may have touched on some others. thanks -- gabriel l romeu http://studiofurniture.com furniture, designed and constructed http://members.aol.com/romeugp paintings, photos, prints, etc. http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR a daily photo journal *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dave - Thanks for the good advice. We are lucky to have a chemist among us! I've determined that my basement, at the present season, goes down to 56 degrees at night, so I certainly ought to be able to pre-warm the work area, as you suggest, with a few space heaters (there is no heat source other than heat accidentally thrown off from the furnace, and a fireplace whose use would be ill-advised). There's not an openable window in the whole space, but there are the Bilco doors, through which large objects may be carried and large volumes of cold air may enter. Are there concerns about ventilation when using epoxy, resin, varnish, etc? Might it be sufficient to open only the fireplace flue for air circulation, or would I have to open the doors? Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us... Anne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Anne Burton wrote: > Thanks for the good advice. We are lucky to have a chemist > among us! Sometimes that goes the other way ... <g> > I've determined that my basement, at the present season, goes > down to 56 degrees at night, [snip] > There's not an openable window in the whole space, but there > are the Bilco doors, through which large objects may be > carried and large volumes of cold air may enter. Are there > concerns about ventilation when using epoxy, resin, varnish, > etc? Might it be sufficient to open only the fireplace flue for air > circulation, or would I have to open the doors? *Very rarely,* a person becomes sensitized to epoxy (resin? hardener? one or the other, anyway) -- so that they can not work around it. This is normally an acquired allergic response. Normally, this only happens to those who are sloppy and allow the epoxy to contact their skin repeatedly. Unless you become sensitized, you can work in a basement space which is vented as you describe. (I'm giving you the worst case scenario here -- I've worked with these resins for years, and not always been careful, and have never had a hint of a reaction. That's probably the norm for people who work casually with epoxy.) Bottom line for epoxy: has minimal volatiles, so it's OK in your basement. Bottom line for varnish: has lots of volatiles, and consequently should only be applied in an open, well ventilated space. Open all the doors and run a fan! But, you won't need varnish on your boat until a month or so after you have laid on the last coat of resin, because the resin has to be *really hard* so you can sand it well before you apply varnish. It will be summertime by then ... the birds will be singing, people will be wearing swimsuits, Gene Kelly will trip by your door ... -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Anne, >and a fireplace whose use would be ill-advised. Most epoxies won't burn very well (unlike polyester, vinylester, and AME resins) so don't worry about that aspect. Might get some smoke or soot on your boat, though! I build paddles out of vinylester resin and heat my shop with a woodstove (the fire marshall and my insurance company both know it). Some people think I'm nuts, but I'm not stupid about it, been doing it for over 10 years now, and plan on another 10 or more. >Are there >concerns about ventilation when using epoxy, resin, varnish, As someone else mentioned, the varnish can be nasty stuff, but as a general rule, the epoxy resin and hardener are not. There are some bad epoxy hardeners, but it's unlikely you'd be using them as they are difficult to work with and hard to buy in small quantities. Don't worry about breathing epoxy for the little bit of time you'll be exposed to it. Intermittant inhalation for a month or so wouldn't usually require a filter mask. Some people get so sensitive to epoxy that just breathing fumes causes a reaction -- I've heard of such, but never met anyone who was like that. Do keep it off your skin. Clean work habits (gained by experience which you don't have yet) are often sufficient, but I'd recommend gloves while working with the resin until after you've done several boats (bet you can't build just one!). You can wash up most epoxy systems with soap and water fairly easily, you don't need acetone (which is nasty, too, and as flammable as gasoline). Soap and water will even clean up brushes okay, as well as other work implements, but takes more time and elbow grease than acetone does. I usually use cheapies and just throw the brush or roller cover away after finishing a job (one for the outside of a canoe, one for the inside, it may take 4 for a kayak). Squeegies can be washed off fairly easily. Be forwarned that a little acetone can and will soak into bare skin, taking some epoxy with it, which increases the risk of sensitization. Hank Hays Lightning Paddles *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:06:29 -0500, Debbie wrote: Anne- I built my first boat, a cedar strip Wee Lassie, from a boat written by Mac McCarthy. I had no wood working experience. Being female, I was never given the option of "shop" class when young. I had to reread the book many times to figure out some of it and I also called Mac a couple of times. I loved it! With every step accomplished, I learned a lot. I still can't believe that I built something so cool. Now I'm building a sea kayak. Bottom line: Go For It! Debbie Reeves Sandy Hook, NJ ............... Debbie, et al: I've been teaching adult, non-vocational woodworking, as a part-time instructor for the last 16 years (weekend and evening courses, after my regular day/week as a senior medical adjudicator for the government). By and large, the best students are the women (about half the students are). They listen to instructions, such as don't use the rip fence for cross-cutting. The older men just shrug shoulders, and go on acting dangerously, not using push sticks, etc, as they "know what they are doing". The men do get hurt from time to time. The ladies on the courses follow a plan three times as easily as the men, taking their time to interpret, correlate with the s2s wood, and execute correctly. The men rarely read the instuctions. The women exibit patience and finess when it comes to sanding and finish, while the men are thinking of their next project before the first one even finished. Hope I'm not coming across as patronizing, but the ladies win hands-down - or is that hands on? Just because our culture programs (or used to when I was in school) the female gender toward other pursuits in school, doesn't mean they are any less the better woodworkers. Are men better woodworkers? Yes, only because there are so few women woodworkers around. I guess you could say the women "are lost in the woodwork" :-) Keep up the great work, Deb. Women make better paddlers too. No macho silliness. Lot's of common sense. Good preparation skills. Fun company during miserable weather. (I'm glad most of my male paddling friends don't read PaddleWise, that way I can still pretend with them, than men are the best!) Doug Lloyd Victoria BC Canada *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
While being a member of the gender of mixed chromosomes myself, I concur with the esteemed Mr. Lloyd. As far as instructive receptivity goes...........girls rule! Sometime try to teach longboarding to a girl and then try the same routine with a guy........ Surfing, like most other of life's pursuits, is a balance thing, not a strength thing. Girls get it. Guys generally do not, until they have been slammed a few dozen times at the aforementioned 10 Gs. Then guys get it. inetex wrote: > On Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:06:29 -0500, Debbie wrote: > Anne- > I built my first boat, a cedar strip Wee Lassie, from a boat written by Mac > McCarthy. I had no wood working experience. Being female, I was never > given the option of "shop" class when young. I had to reread the book many > times to figure out some of it and I also called Mac a couple of times. I > loved it! With every step accomplished, I learned a lot. I still can't > believe that I built something so cool. Now I'm building a sea kayak. > Bottom line: Go For It! > Debbie Reeves > Sandy Hook, NJ > ............... > Debbie, et al: > > I've been teaching adult, non-vocational woodworking, as a part-time > instructor for the last 16 years (weekend and evening courses, after my > regular day/week as a senior medical adjudicator for the government). By > and large, the best students are the women (about half the students are). > They listen to instructions, such as don't use the rip fence for > cross-cutting. The older men just shrug shoulders, and go on acting > dangerously, not using push sticks, etc, as they "know what they are > doing". The men do get hurt from time to time. The ladies on the courses > follow a plan three times as easily as the men, taking their time to > interpret, correlate with the s2s wood, and execute correctly. The men > rarely read the instuctions. The women exibit patience and finess when it > comes to sanding and finish, while the men are thinking of their next > project before the first one even finished. Hope I'm not coming across as > patronizing, but the ladies win hands-down - or is that hands on? > > Just because our culture programs (or used to when I was in school) the > female gender toward other pursuits in school, doesn't mean they are any > less the better woodworkers. Are men better woodworkers? Yes, only because > there are so few women woodworkers around. I guess you could say the women > "are lost in the woodwork" :-) > > Keep up the great work, Deb. Women make better paddlers too. No macho > silliness. Lot's of common sense. Good preparation skills. Fun company > during miserable weather. (I'm glad most of my male paddling friends don't > read PaddleWise, that way I can still pretend with them, than men are the > best!) > > Doug Lloyd > Victoria BC > Canada > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Doug wrote, >They listen to instructions, such as don't use the rip fence for >cross-cutting. The older men just shrug shoulders, and go on acting >dangerously, not using push sticks, etc, as they "know what they are >doing". Instructions are what to puzzle over when all else fails, as in "is that how it is supposed to work?" What's a rip fence anyhow and why use a push stick when God gave me hands ? Cheers Robert Most people take a minimum of 1/10th of a second to react to an emergency. A table saw blade takes 464 bites out of a careless user in 1/10th of a second (3480 rpm X 60 teeth on the saw blade / 60 seconds X 1/10 second) all with a three horsepower to back up each bite. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Re: safety in boat building Rather remarkably many old time boat builders do work in what many consider a careless fashion. After thirty seven years of boatbuilding I still have all my fingers yet I look back in horror at some of the things I did years ago. I like to think I work more safely now but every so often I find myself doing things that the safety manuals etc. warn against. Of course, when I started out, builders didn't have the same concern for safety they have now. Old habits die hard and even losing a finger won't change some habits. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Anne, A pretty good low tech ventilation solution to your problem would be to open the big door, cover the opening with a piece of cardboard from an appliance box, such as one that a big refridgerator would come in. I'd use duct tape to hold it in place. Then cut a hole in the cardboard for the exhuast of a fan. To keep from wasting too much heat, I have used a fan in a box (like a strong bathroom fan) and attached a 4" flexible dryer vent to it on each end. This way I can put the opening of the hose near the source of fumes and the other end outside. You want to keep the hose fairly straight or you wont get decent air flow. You might also be able vent this out the fireplace flue instead of making a cardboard door cover. The vapors are not very good for your health, and most fireplace flues aren't set up to ventilate a room, except when they're burning. Good Luck - Saul >There's not an openable window in the whole space, but there >are the Bilco doors, through which large objects may be >carried and large volumes of cold air may enter. Are there >concerns about ventilation when using epoxy, resin, varnish, >etc? Might it be sufficient to open only the fireplace flue for air >circulation, or would I have to open the doors? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>You can wash up most epoxy systems with soap and water fairly easily, you >don't need acetone (which is nasty, too, and as flammable as gasoline). >Soap and water will even clean up brushes okay, as well as other work >implements, but takes more time and elbow grease than acetone does. I >usually use cheapies and just throw the brush or roller cover away after >finishing a job (one for the outside of a canoe, one for the inside, it may >take 4 for a kayak). Squeegies can be washed off fairly easily. Someone once suggested using vinegar to clean up epoxy so long as it hadn't hardened yet. That's now my usual cleanup stuff now and it's worked well. Do any of you chemists out there have any opinions re safety with this? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Joe Pylka wrote: > Someone once suggested using vinegar to clean up epoxy so long as it > hadn't hardened yet. That's now my usual cleanup stuff now and it's worked > well. Do any of you chemists out there have any opinions re safety with > this? Can't hurt you. The vinegar cuts the amine hardener, much the same way lemon juice cuts fish odor. Soap and water works about as well, in my experience. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Most people take a minimum of 1/10th of a second to react to an emergency. A table saw blade takes 464 bites out of a careless user in 1/10th of a second (3480 rpm X 60 teeth on the saw blade / 60 seconds X 1/10 second) all with a three horsepower to back up each bite. ---------- A few years ago I managed to stick my finger under a 3hp circular saw while shifting my grip on a skinny piece of wood. I could feel the individual teeth cutting into my finger tip under the nail. That sensation was pretty gruesome. I didn't get cut too badly because with the super reflexes of the truly frightened, the saw went flying in one direction while me and my finger went in the other. Bled a lot though. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
A few years ago I managed to stick my finger under a 3hp circular saw while shifting my grip on a skinny piece of wood. I could feel the individual teeth cutting into my finger tip under the nail. That sensation was pretty gruesome. I didn't get cut too badly because with the super reflexes of the truly frightened, the saw went flying in one direction while me and my finger went in the other. Bled a lot though. >>>> It probably wasn't sharp enough. Last week my thumb slipped a little onto the blade of my carving knife, and I didn't even know I was wounded until I saw blood on my work. >> Thanx Chuck, next time I'll make sure the blade is nice and sharp or I'll get a brand new carbide tip before repeating the process. :-) I'll also make sure there's no gas or varnish fumes around in case I hit bone and sparks start flying. :-) On the other hand, a few weeks earlier I got a sore arm by pinching my thumb between the handles of a pop rivet tool when the rivet gave way. I think the soreness was a consequence of violently pulling my hand away, though I don't recall doing it. The tool went flying into a snowbank, but that was deliberate. ;-) Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/12/99 10:49:35 AM Pacific Standard Time, aburton1_at_maine.rr.com writes: << For those of you who have built boats, did you have prior woodworking or building or engineering experience, or were you a novice? >> Anne, I had a little bit of boat building experience (mostly helping my dad when I was 10) but since my boat turned out better than his I think that shows I didnt learn anything from him :) The experience only helped me with epoxy and fiberglass application, which is basically the equivalent of painting a thick paper towel onto your boat. The boat I built had to be lofted from offsets (drawn on a piece of plywood from a series of x-y intercepts to reveal a panel or piece) which makes building a little more risky. Pre cut panels supplied with most kits would really lighten the workload. I say go for it! Good luck, Robin Lovelock extreme amateur builder by the way, if anyone is interested in a pic of my boat (seems like someone asked a while back) send me a private email and ill return it, unless ya'll wouldnt mind me listing it. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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