Re: [Paddlewise] Group Paddling - A warning

HTERVORT_at_aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 4/8/99 9:46:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes:
> 
> <<  I am not sure how you distinguish kayaks and boats. . . . >>
> 
> A bit snobbishly actually.  If its big enough to row or has an aspect ratio
> beyond some undefined fatness ratio, it might be an Umiak, but not a kayak in
> my stuffy opinion. :-)

I find it interesting how some of us tend to define an activity in an
exclusionary way, i.e. our version is the only true version.  So we
won't allow something to be called a kayak unless it fits our own
definition that is created by what we paddle and something else is a
"boat" with a bit of perjorative to it.  Kayaking has a curious peeking
order:  The Keowee and sit-on-tops are on the lowest rung; folding
kayaks (or just "boats" in some views) occupy just a slightly higher
order; plastic kayaks (really polyethylene) are looked down on by
fiberglass kayakers; larger cockpit, beamier fiberglass kayaks are
dismissed as "northwest" by purists in skinny British kayaks; these
heavy as lead Brit kayaks are laughed at by those making their own
lighter wood kit/plans kayaks or skin kayaks.

    
> 
>  <<Unless you have tried to tip over a folding kayak to experience the
> phenomenon it is hard to believe that it works but it does, to a degree, i.e.
> it ain't really fully like trying to submerge a balloon but rather in that
> direction.  I don't want to exaggerate the claim.  >>
> 
> Well, Ralph, I've tested the secondary stability of most all the Feathercraft
> (if that counts).  And yes, when they are sponson equipped, they have *big*
> secondary stability, at times even an annoying amount (that "training wheel"
> feeling) when taking steep wakes or surf from the side.  But, disregarding
> the feeling of the soft sides, I still don't see or feel any real difference
> between their sudden high secondary stability and that supplied by a rigid
> boat with a similar extreme flare located above the waterline (such as the WS
> Rascal, Manteo, Pungo series).  Is there a difference between pushing a
> balloon under water and submerging a glass net float or other rigid sphere of
> the same size?  Does deformation of the skin and resultant redistribution of
> the buoyancy contribute something?  At one time in the dark history of the
> flame wars, some forgotten figure claimed miraculous safety gains could be
> obtained with *any* boat of any shape or construction by strapping sp*ns*ns
> on the outside of the craft.  What is different here?  Curious minds want to
> know. :-)

Big differences.  I don't claim any such miracle as did our S-man.  He
was suggesting that s's be used in whitewater for god sake and that
anyone who did not use s's was a baby killer (John Winters and me led
that parade in his estimate).  His strap-on sponsons could take time to
set up, more time than he claimed.  I found it hard back then to argue
with someone who lacked a sense of proportions.  If you can't see the
difference between what S-man said and what I say then the argument is
closed.  Good day to you.

ralph..........................................................................................................

Okay, I'm back.  I just got pissed off for a second :-).  In the spirit
of Easter and resurrection and a willingness to forgive trespasses and
dealing with a Doubting Thomas who won't believe unless he can put his
fingers in the wounds...

I am not sure that what I have to offer is experiment enough (you ask
for experiments at a later point in your note) and I doubt that anything
I have to offer could sway someone who is self-confessed snobbish and
stuffy opiniated (see your quoted stuff above :-)).  What I have is a
comparison of similar width folding kayaks (i.e. soft-sided skin over
frame) that are sponsonless (by design) vs those with sponsons. This
shows that the latter have a stronger secondary stability that kicks in
at some point that the former do not.  I am thinking of the Pouch and
Nautiraid doubles as an example.  Moreover, there is a difference among
the folders between external and internal sponsons in kayaks of the same
width such as the Klepper double and Nautiraid double.  The sponsons on
the latter are external and resemble more the pure balloon than do the
internal ones of the Klepper.  Also within the sponsoned folding kayak
family the same model with larger vs. smaller sponsons is a lot less
tippy at the secondary stability point.  The case in point is the
Klepper Aerius 2000 which started its life in a tippy small sponsoned
format, which scared many paddlers, to one with larger sponsons.  There
was an ever so slight gain in width (under an inch) but the effect was
dramatic...well and over and beyond just the slight increase in width.

The compressed air seems to be a factor in here somewhere too.  I don't
roll but people who do and do so in folding kayaks have commented on how
in the roll at some point, as they are coming up, the still submerged
sponson suddenly pushes the boat up when pass the midpoint.

Back to a hardshell sans sponsons and a folding kayak with sponsons. 
The Perception Jocasee is 32.5 inches wide, the Nautiraid Raid 2 Touring
(the smallest double) is 32 inches wide with sponsons.  I would wager
that the Jocassee would tip over sooner than the Nautiraid if its two
paddlers leaned out to one side.  the Jocassee would seem to have an
advantage with the slight width gain plus it is a longer boat.

ralph diaz
-- 
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Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
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