Dan, "Peer reviewed medical literature" dosen't mean medical doctors had anything to do with it. More than likely the authors were Ph.D.'s expert in sports physiology or nutrition or both. Not that it matters - use what works. Water alone definitely dosen't work for me. Bill Dan: >Peer review by "Doctors" on a nutrition issue? Aren't you aware that medical >doctors receive only one nutrition course in med school, and are in fact, >the LAST group you would go to for nutritional advice. > Somebody else: > > The peer reviewed medical literature on hydration supports >the use of plain > water for maintaining hydration and rehydration. With that, >if the use of > sports drinks works for you, do it. > > I like the hydration system approach because I find I take >lots of small > sips and take in more water with a hose than with a water >bottle. > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dan Volker writes: "Aren't you aware that medical doctors receive only one nutrition course in med school, and are in fact, the LAST group you would go to for nutritional advice.....If you check with any elite level cyclists or triathletes...." And the number of nutrition courses elite lever cyclists et al receive is....? Bill Hansen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dan Volker writes: "Aren't you aware that medical doctors receive only one nutrition course in med school, and are in fact, the LAST group you would go to for nutritional advice.....If you check with any elite level cyclists or triathletes...." And the number of nutrition courses elite lever cyclists et al receive is....? Bill Hansen Bill, OK, I deserved that :-) But, every competitive cyclist I know ( myself particularly) uses nutrition as a tool to help out compete others. This is critical for recovery, which is actually when you get stronger, and its critical for maintaining the highest level of glycogen loading within the primary muscles, throughout each ride. Since we are constantly "testing" new products, against a field of riders which has a highly predictable performance level compared to your own, any significant change to your performance is immediately noted, and the athlete then looks for repeatability. In issues like water versus Hydra Fuel or Cytomax, this has been absolutely demonstrated so many times as to be considered a non-issue. Many cyclists also have a long slow day in their weekly training ( LSD day) , where they may ride for 4 to 7 hours. Energy expenditures are relatively low throughout this long ride ( slow speeds relative to competitive rides), so the comparison with kayaking becomes far closer. Particularly with these long rides, major performance differences occur when using the Hydra fuel or Cytomax products over water, as your body's glycogen levels in muscles and liver supply drop sharply after 2 hours without feeding ( even at low power outputs). On these long rides, every 2.5 to 3 hours, a high protein medium carb product needs to be consumed ( 2 to 1 ration, like 30 grams of protein and 15 grams of carb. This assumes you maintain a high level of hydration at all times. We Expect to consume at least a gallon of water in 5 hours, and with heat this could double. ) I am aware of the tendency of some athletes to use carb only in this scenario, but there are much better reasons for the protein and carb feeding, than I can go into in this short post. If you like, I can go into them with a future post. My primary "source" for my ideas is Terry Giles, one of the top nutrition minds in the US, and a trainer of some of the best Olympia level Bodybuilders, Cyclists and triathletes. Regards, Dan Volker *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dan Volker wrote (as part of a dialog with Bill Hansen): > Many cyclists also have a long slow day in their weekly training (LSD > day) , where they may ride for 4 to 7 hours. Energy expenditures are > relatively low throughout this long ride (slow speeds relative to > competitive rides), so the comparison with kayaking becomes far closer. > Particularly with these long rides, major performance differences occur when > using the Hydra fuel or Cytomax products over water, as your body's glycogen > levels in muscles and liver supply drop sharply after 2 hours without > feeding (even at low power outputs). > > On these long rides, every 2.5 to 3 hours, a high protein medium carb > product needs to be consumed (2 to 1 ration, like 30 grams of protein and > 15 grams of carb. This assumes you maintain a high level of hydration at all > times. We expect to consume at least a gallon of water in 5 hours, and with > heat this could double. ) > > I am aware of the tendency of some athletes to use carb only in this > scenario, but there are much better reasons for the protein and carb > feeding, than I can go into in this short post. If you like, I can go into > them with a future post. Yeah, I like (although we may be the only three interested). Here's why: I have traditionally hit the fluids and mainly the carbos on longer, more demanding days on the water. Sometimes I have supplemented the carbos (candy bars and/or bread stuff) with a little protein (peanuts/hummus, etc.), but NEVER in a 2:1 protein:carbo ratio. Not an athlete here, that's for sure, but adding significant protein would be a big change in my on-the-water dietary regime. Is this 2:1 protein:carbo stuff going to make any difference to the average, out-of-shape nonathletic paddler like me? Be kind ... -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dave, the difference will be "smoother" energy--less spikes followed by drops in the "strength/speed" you feel capable of. And beyond this, this type of feeding protects the muscle from catabolic metabolism, so recovery is faster, and increases in fitness occur faster. Just any protein will not do. It needs to be high in bioavailabilty, and you can pretty much rule out soy protein. The carb needs to be complex, nothing like dextrose sugar.....in other words, you need a carb like rice, NOT a carb like table sugar. Iron Tek makes a bar pretty much ideal for this ( www.iron-tek.com ) as does Met Rex...MLO may be another choice. As one other poster mentioned, this protein intake will force you to drink much more more fluid than a carb alone---but you really need to be drinking as much as possible anyway. You might even have one bottle with hydra fuel and one with pure water ( even though hydra fuel or cytomax are hypotonic, pure water is better for you around your meals. The bar could be your two-2.5 hour feed, with a sip of hydra fuel every 10 to 15 minutes to keep you hydrated. Regards, Dan Volker -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Dave Kruger Sent: Saturday, May 01, 1999 8:21 AM To: dlv_at_gate.net; PaddleWise Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Hydration systems/electrolytes Dan Volker wrote (as part of a dialog with Bill Hansen): > Many cyclists also have a long slow day in their weekly training (LSD > day) , where they may ride for 4 to 7 hours. Energy expenditures are > relatively low throughout this long ride (slow speeds relative to > competitive rides), so the comparison with kayaking becomes far closer. > Particularly with these long rides, major performance differences occur when > using the Hydra fuel or Cytomax products over water, as your body's glycogen > levels in muscles and liver supply drop sharply after 2 hours without > feeding (even at low power outputs). > > On these long rides, every 2.5 to 3 hours, a high protein medium carb > product needs to be consumed (2 to 1 ration, like 30 grams of protein and > 15 grams of carb. This assumes you maintain a high level of hydration at all > times. We expect to consume at least a gallon of water in 5 hours, and with > heat this could double. ) > > I am aware of the tendency of some athletes to use carb only in this > scenario, but there are much better reasons for the protein and carb > feeding, than I can go into in this short post. If you like, I can go into > them with a future post. Yeah, I like (although we may be the only three interested). Here's why: I have traditionally hit the fluids and mainly the carbos on longer, more demanding days on the water. Sometimes I have supplemented the carbos (candy bars and/or bread stuff) with a little protein (peanuts/hummus, etc.), but NEVER in a 2:1 protein:carbo ratio. Not an athlete here, that's for sure, but adding significant protein would be a big change in my on-the-water dietary regime. Is this 2:1 protein:carbo stuff going to make any difference to the average, out-of-shape nonathletic paddler like me? Be kind ... -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Two very different views here: Because of something called the "Glycemic Index," complex carbohydrates (starches) are better for the long haul than simple carbohydrates (sugars). Some of the "Power Bar" type of stuff some athletes eat contain a lot of protein (or its building blocks - the aminoacids). Unless you can drink large quantities of water, you are better off eating carbohydrates than protein. While you are actively exercising you are not building up muscle, that happens after the exercise. You will not break down muscle if you have enough carbohydrates in your system while you exercise. Therefore, if you exercise for hours and eat proteins, your body goes through a complex process to convert that nice protein into energy to burn (basically turning the protein into sugar) - and the process produces more waste than eating carbohydrates. > the difference will be "smoother" energy--less spikes followed by drops in > the "strength/speed" you feel capable of. And beyond this, this type of > feeding protects the muscle from catabolic metabolism, so recovery is > faster, and increases in fitness occur faster. Just any protein will not > do. It needs to be high in bioavailabilty, and you can pretty much rule out > soy protein. Any suggestions for a food plan - both in camp and on the water - for a 4-day paddling trip, maintaining moderate to somewhat elevated activity for 6-7 hours per day? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:32:58 PDT