Having spent 20 years with my butt in the seat of a kayak, having led and been led on more group paddles then I care to remember, let me offer this bit of advice - If you are ever on a group paddle with a designated leader, and this leader fails to keep control of the group, resign yourself to never paddle with him/her again. The 'experienced group leaders' of this list are failing to take responsibility for failure to maintain control. They insist it to be the fault of the novice, or the 'hot shots', the fast, the slow, the independents, the wind, the waves, the water. What they are skirting around in their own inability to lead. A true leader takes responsibility, and blame, for the success of the group paddle. A true leader will not let the group become a liability to itself. How dare you reject the input from those who have never paddled in a group when it is obvious from your posting that you lack the skills to lead. Leadership is a rare quality. If you don't poses it, you endanger the lives of the entire group by taking a leadership position. Your group leader may be the nicest or the meanest SOB you ever met, but maintaining control over any situation, or preventing it in the first place, is what counts. john Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Kortis wrote: > If you are ever on a group paddle with a designated leader, and this > leader fails to keep control of the group, resign yourself to never > paddle with him/her again. > > The 'experienced group leaders' of this list are failing to take > responsibility for failure to maintain control. [snip] > What they are skirting > around is their own inability to lead. A true leader takes > responsibility, and blame, for the success of the group paddle. A true > leader will not let the group become a liability to itself. [snip] > > Leadership is a rare quality. If you don't poses it, you endanger the > lives of the entire group by taking a leadership position. > > Your group leader may be the nicest or the meanest SOB you ever met, but > maintaining control over any situation, or preventing it in the first > place, is what counts. Hmmmm ... John, are you trolling, or is this really how you handle informal paddling with acquaintances and/or friends? Or, are you speaking specifically to paddling trips in which you are the guide/major domo/authority over everyone else? I'm pretty sure you are not describing a trip in which no one is designated as leader -- and it sounds like you would not successfully *share* leadership. How do you feel about folks who come along who have a wealth of experience (similar to yours), and who make a judgement call which differs substantially from yours? Are they always wrong? I think Ralph Diaz' paddling groups tend to be like most club paddles: a nominal leader, but with no significant "enforcement" powers aside from his/her persuasive skills. I've been "lead" by folks who run the show with a heavy hand, and I usually do not repeat the experience. OTOH, I've also been "lead" by folks who were charming, pleasant, and inspired their charges by example. Do either of those categories fit you, John? Or, do you fit into some different category? I think I'll learn something from your response. I'm waiting ... -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
WELL, dear Paddlewisers, it seems to be that some paddlers are strictly anti-authoritan and helplessly romantic when it comes to paddling & enjoying mother nature ;-) I might consider myself to fit into that category: I have kayaked mostly solo last four years. One of the last trips of last summer included a return trip of 25 kms from the island of Skorvo, where one of the local clubs have an annual autumn meeting: usually some 50 to 80 kayakers camping there. The meeting included some wine, sauna and late-night campfire, so when the morning rose and the weather forecast was not so promising I volunteered to join a group of 12 kayakers returning Helsinki. The group included three experienced kayakers, I do know one of them, and nine greenhorns. The hard wind was rising four-foot- swells and it was supposed to turn worse, so I had the idea that the group could benefit from my presence if something would go wrong - and my precious _at_$$ would also be more safe because of the presence of the other experienced kayakers. Our route included some channels, safe from the NE/E wind, but also three crossings, one of them about 2 kms. I was curious to see what would happen, because some of the greenhorns had never had any experience about waves higher than 1 ft, or about crossings at all. Hmmmmmmmmm... When we were on water I had to help someone with my knife, there were small stones jamming the skeg inside the container. Nice start, luckily we still were at the calm side of the island. Then we had a short meeting, the elected leader decided the route and what kind of formation we should take. When we were paddling the first channel my brit-built kayak [yup, Gerald, heavy but fast :-)] wanted to take the leadership: it seemed that the rest of the group was a little bit too slow for me. The leader/navigator pointed that out for me and I did volunteer to stay at the back for the rest of the trip and take the tail of the group, where the rest of the more experienced kaykers were. It seemed reasonable: I did not want to guestion her authority, or make silly comments. The first crossing was the hardest, it actually happened that the promised hard wind surprisingly calmed down later during the afternoon. The side starboard wind rised beautiful four-footers with small breaking caps and I enjoyed the sight of heads and paddles popping in sight behind the tops. First we were taking a formation of a square, or quite soon actually an oval, where the navigator was in front, the other three experienced sea-kayakers at the back. There, tailing the group, we soon had to make a quick decision to divide the tail of experienced kayakers: one stayed at the back, me and an other took controlling the sides, just in case someone would lose the control of his/her kayak and capsize, and to courage and avoid people drifting downwind. One of the ladies had problems. The kayak was getting too much downwind, though she tried to paddle furiously and turn back. I paddled close to her and it turned out that she had no experience at all about controlling the kayak with a skeg. How had she been doing the same trip the other day? With some talk - I was not exactly p o l i t e in that situation - I got her to lose the white- knuckled grip of her paddle and get the skeg up from the low position it had been all the time. Whew! Rescueing her would have been hard... The rest of the trip went all right, though going was painfully slow for me. We kept the same formation and eye on the novices, changed navigator twice to break the routine. The leader joined us on tail of the group. During the second lunch break I felt cold sneaking under my dry-suit bacause I had been swetting hard inside my fleece, so I left the group after having some friendly talks and bidding farewell. The weather had calmed down and there was only 4 kms left of a safe route. The leader made no objections. My conclusions: if you are part of the group you stay with the group, take care and assume responsibility. Even if keeping a formation or certain speed feels painful. Even if the rules seem to be overnecessary formal. There is actually very little a designated leader can do if someone gets overindividualistic. Paddling with an unexperienced and unfamiliar group can offer some nasty surprises. Luckily everything went well - therefore I am not sure if I do want to paddle in groups very often. About authority: group leadership is not something someone takes - it is GIVEN by the group, and therefore you are supposed to act according to the very same decision you yourself were making. That includes especially the situations when you are taking part to a trip with a commercial guide: you hired him, didnīt you? Cheers, Ari Whining from Helsinki, Finland - Europe: +10 degrees Centigrades yesterday & still 20 cms of ice at sea... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
asaarto wrote: > <WELL, dear Paddlewisers, it seems to be that some paddlers are > strictly anti-authoritan and helplessly romantic when it comes to > paddling & enjoying mother nature ;-) I might consider myself to fit > into that category: I have kayaked mostly solo last four years.> Nice post Ari, Sanity prevails. You were in the right place at the right time and did the right thing. The group was in a position to benefit from your experience and you were able to gain insight into group paddling /leadership issues. I'd call that a good day on the water. Phil Daligan Unforgetable quotes heard during guiding. " is this island surrounded by sea?" " where does the sea go?" " the moon seems different here. Is it the same moon?" Anyone else hear any good ones ? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
The Hooligan wrote: >Unforgetable quotes heard during guiding. >" is this island surrounded by sea?" >" where does the sea go?" >" the moon seems different here. Is it the same moon?" > >Anyone else hear any good ones ? One I remember from a Grand Canyon trip was: Why do they call it the south rim? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hank Hays wrote: > The Hooligan wrote: > > >Unforgetable quotes heard during guiding. > >" is this island surrounded by sea?" > >" where does the sea go?" > >" the moon seems different here. Is it the same moon?" > > > >Anyone else hear any good ones ? On a trip out of LaPaz, Mexico we saw a small island covered with white bird poop and someone asked "is that snow?" > > Hal Wilton, NH Power your boat with carbohydrates, not hydrocarbons. http://www.jlc.net/~hlevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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