A couple of years ago at the Inland Sea Symposium, Derek tried to get me to give up my Greenland paddle for his overpriced Toksook. Everyone goes through a phase in which they are fascinated by native paddles, he said, with the implication that he had grown out of it and I had not, though afterward I noted how much the ads for the Toksook plugged its native origins. I stuck to my Greenland paddle, however, and by the end of the weekend, he seemed to respect that, especially after seeing Linda do a reentry and roll with hers. (And maybe also because, as an East Anglian herself, she stood up for East Anglians after hearing his talk about his North Sea crossing.) I should also add, because of his curmudgeonly reputation, that he graciously volunteered to let us crib from his copy of Linda Legg's BCU instructors manual after hearing that we planned to take the Four Star assessment later that summer. As others have pointed out, the lenticular shape that makes the Toksook so easy to scull with is shared by the Greenland paddle, which is also an easy paddle to scull with. The main difference, aside from the fact that the Greenland paddle has no center rib to spoil the flow, is that the Greenland blade is much longer and narrower, so when sculling or rolling, most paddlers extend it for added leverage (which it is designed for). However, it is also possible to scull and roll with a Greenland paddle with the hands in the normal paddling position, just not as easily. Also, a Greenland paddle carved from Western red cedar and unencumbered by fiberglass is probably lighter and stronger than the Toksook. I have instructions for making your own Greenland paddle for less than $20 that can be downloaded from the Paddlewise Web site. (Note, however, that this is an old set of instructions that I plan to replace soon.) Unlike modern "Euro" paddles, because of its shape, the Greenland paddle is traditionally sculled with the blade well underwater (about 30 degrees) rather than on the surface, and I understand that this is how George Gronseth teaches it. In fact, a sculling roll, in which the paddle blade starts well underwater, is one of the easiest rolls to do with a Greenland paddle. When I finally persuaded Linda to try it, she said, "That's not a roll; it's too easy! That's just a sculling brace!" The Greenland storm paddle, which was mentioned in another thread, is a short version of the Greenland paddle that is about as long as the paddler is tall. Its loom is so short (about two hands-breadths) that it can only be used with a sliding stroke. However, in the extended position (which is the normal postion for doing anything with a storm paddle), it is even easier to roll with than a standard Greenland paddle, because it is easier to sweep through the water. Referring to yet another thread, it makes an excellent spare paddle, because it requires no assembly and is short enough to stow on the foredeck, where one can easily retrieve it and roll up with it if one should lose one's main paddle in a capsize. Chuck Holst -----Original Message----- From: Bob Tellefson [mailto:bob_at_sbka.org] Sent: Monday, April 05, 1999 5:41 PM To: paddlewise Subject: [Paddlewise] Toksook Paddle Last week I had the good fortune to take a class with Derek Hutchinson. It was meant to be a dry day, and was for the most part; a day focusing on paddle strokes. Now those of you that know or have read Derek's writings, know that he hardly has any opinions at all. :-) One of his opinions along the lines of "most light weight modern paddles are rubbish" got my attention; particularly when I was able to try out his paddle. He calls it Toksook. It has foam core symmetrical blades with the paddle shaft extended nearly to the end of the blade as a faired in 'backbone'. This faired in backbone gives the blade a wing cross section having the same convex surface on both faces. The blade edges are thicker than most blades that I've seen. That's my best description of it construction. My experience using it was immediately positive. We had been practicing sculling and I found it much easier to scull with his blade. It was more forgiving than my thin blade with a curved power face; it was less likely to dive or flutter. Sweeps were easier to control, more predictable. Others in the group had similar experiences with the Toksook. Can anyone tell me more about this paddle? Are there other designs like it? Apparently they are made in very limited quantities in the UK. I hope to get my hands on one but wonder what other paddles might provide a similar experience. Bob Tellefson Santa Barbara Kayak Assocation http://www.sbka.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>I have instructions for making your own Greenland paddle > for less than $20 that can be downloaded from the Paddlewise Web site. > (Note, however, that this is an old set of instructions that I plan to > replace soon.) Hi Chuck, Having built two paddles from your plans, with a third just waiting for the right piece of lumber, I look forward to your updated plans (though it is a strain to imagine the old ones can be improved). Not only have they made me cross over to the Greenland, having more than one in my truck at the launch site is starting to affect others as well! Thanks, Woody P.S. Does anyone see a problem with making the very center of the loom round so that a break apart joint can be added? (thinking that I might like a breakdown greenland for a spare) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/6/99 5:10:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, woodardr_at_tidalwave.net writes: << Does anyone see a problem with making the very center of the loom round so that a break apart joint can be added? (thinking that I might like a breakdown greenland for a spare) >> Definitely not a purist thing to do and maybe a little weaker, but that doesn't stop the Feathercraft or Betsie Bay people. Go for it. Harold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
By "lenticular shape" do you mean the "willow leaf" shape as Derek calls it? The shape as seen when looking at the power face has little to do with how easy it is to use. It is the thick cross sectional shape of both the Toksook and the standard Greenland style paddle which makes it very forgiving while sculling and rolling. A relatively thick blade relative to will be less likely to dive or stall if you have the angle of attack off a little. The difficulty sculling with "modern" paddles is not so much that they are wide, but they are thin. There is good reason to make them thin because this keeps them light, but they do tend to be a little touchy when sculling. A wooden paddle of the same shape as a modern composite blade will be easier to roll with by virtue of its increased thickness. Nick At 12:37 PM -0500 4/6/99, Chuck Holst wrote: >snip >As others have pointed out, the lenticular shape that makes the Toksook >so easy to scull with is shared by the Greenland paddle, which is also >an easy paddle to scull with. The main difference, aside from the fact >that the Greenland paddle has no center rib to spoil the flow, is that >the Greenland blade is much longer and narrower, so when sculling or >rolling, most paddlers extend it for added leverage (which it is >designed for). However, it is also possible to scull and roll with a >Greenland paddle with the hands in the normal paddling position, just >not as easily. Also, a Greenland paddle carved from Western red cedar >and unencumbered by fiberglass is probably lighter and stronger than >the Toksook. I have instructions for making your own Greenland paddle >for less than $20 that can be downloaded from the Paddlewise Web site. >(Note, however, that this is an old set of instructions that I plan to >replace soon.) > >Unlike modern "Euro" paddles, because of its shape, the Greenland >paddle is traditionally sculled with the blade well underwater (about >30 degrees) rather than on the surface, and I understand that this is >how George Gronseth teaches it. In fact, a sculling roll, in which the >paddle blade starts well underwater, is one of the easiest rolls to do >with a Greenland paddle. When I finally persuaded Linda to try it, she >said, "That's not a roll; it's too easy! That's just a sculling brace!" Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 10 Ash Swamp Rd Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>By "lenticular shape" do you mean the "willow leaf" shape as Derek calls >it? The shape as seen when looking at the power face has little to do with >how easy it is to use. It is the thick cross sectional shape of both the >Toksook and the standard Greenland style paddle which makes it very >forgiving while sculling and rolling. A relatively thick blade relative to >will be less likely to dive or stall if you have the angle of attack off a >little. > One of the problems we face in discussing paddles has to do with nomenclature as Nick touches upon. It seems that aeronautical terms work nicely for paddles. For example; Profile - The shape of the paddle when you look at its face. Section - The shape of the blade when you cut it at right angles to the shaft centerline. Typically the section varies from one end of the blade to the other. Aspect ratio - Length of the blade divided by the width of the blade. For blades that vary in width along their length the aspect the method used by Abbott and Doenheoff in "Theory of Wing Sections" works just fine (b^2/S where b equals the length of the blade and S equals the area). Thickness or camber - the percentage of thickness to width works nicely for most paddles. It has, like the aspect ratio, the advantage of non-dimensionality. Edge radius - generally a radius as a percentage of thickness. One thing that confuses the issue of how paddles handle has to do with the edge radius. A sharp edge on a thicker paddle can produce problems when sculling. Conversely a rounded edge can reduce sculling problems on a thin blade. In some rather casual trials I found that a 1/4" bead all around the edge of a thin bladed paddle had a positive effect on the handling. This suggests that the edge radius may have more importance than thickness with regards to handling of paddles. This seems particularly true in conditions where lift gets generated since the sharper edges tend to stall more quickly than rounded edges. Experiments on some types of ship rudders support this. My experience with various blades supports Nick's assessment of the handling characteristics of thicker wide blades versus thinner wide blades. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Schade wrote: >The difficulty sculling with "modern" paddles is not so much that they are >wide, but they are thin. The AT paddle is very thin, but is great for sculling. (I have not financial connection to AT. Just a fan.) Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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