I agree with most of your points from religion on down. Possibly the doubles had more trouble into the waves. Doubles are generally faster than singles and that is why they were ahead of me in the first place but it was so common for me to catch them on the into the wind leg I took it as a given and used it in my race strategy. Draft the fastest one I could until we turn into the wind and then pass them then. We don't need a bored university student just one that needs to write a paper. Great idea, experimenting is usually so much better than theorizing or mathematical models. The U of W has a wind tunnel. Kevin Whilden are you listening? Are you bored? Do you know anyone with access to the wind tunnel? Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com -----Original Message----- From: John Winters <735769_at_ican.net> To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Sunday, May 02, 1999 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] (un)Feathered paddles in surf >Ralph wrote that this feathered Vs unfeathered paddle business takes on the >odor of religion. I disagree. In this particular case I think he discussion >has an objective of greater understanding of the topic. By raising >objections to each other's points we close in on the crux of a complex >subject and the end product (if we obtain one) may enlighten someone. On >the other hand, if I can find my little wax feathered paddle and some pins >I can put this to rest with out much more discussion. :-) > >Matt wrote; > >(SNIP) > >>This diversion of flow >>around the paddler (that causes the "safe lee" and "hopeless" positions in >>sailboat racing) if it occurs to any significant degree would only mean >that >>the paddlers unfeathered blade would be perpendicular to the flow a little >>later in the stroke. > >Perhaps but only depending upon stroke mechanics and then the force would >not act parallel to the line of travel although it might exert a force >against the paddler's arms that might increase his effort. Not sure about >that though. The problem that arises has to do with the turbulent flow >around the boat and paddler. I know of no research on this (I take that >back. I think New Zealanders some years back worked on sprint boats that >resulted in fairings around the cockpit. Ruled illegal right away though). > >I think one has to treat this paddle thing as a system rather than isolated >parts. That makes it complicated and may defy resolution. > > >>Maximum drag is what I meant by most effected. Not much changes, drag >wise, >>if the flow is withing 25 degrees to perpendicular, so the unfeathered >>paddle would have to be very close to the body to get much benefit from >this >>effect. > >I suppose "very close" becomes an issue. For example, I my boat in the >water this afternoon and found the following; During the power phase the >distance from the paddle to my body never exceeded 1'8". Well within the >range where interference effects occur. From exit to power phase the paddle >traveled across the free stream flow and one might even start to suspect >some positive lift occuring. (HMMM?) > >As I played about the thought crossed my mind that the paddle might even >serve to reduce net drag. (HMMMM again) > > >>This may be true in special cases, but my personal experience racing has >>been that when we turn into the wind is when I (in my single) can finally >>catch the double that had been previously out of reach. (Then I use this >>effect--hiding from the wind--behind them and their wake to "draft" them >and >>get a rest before passing). Of course, any angle much off of directly into >>the wind would be a disadvantage to the bigger frontal area of a double >with >>twice the number of paddlers sticking up into the airflow. That could be >the >>reason I caught up or maybe they were all just using unfeathered paddles >>into the wind and I wasn't. > >This really surprises me (not the drafting part but being able to catch >doubles directly up wind) . Perhaps these doubles were pretty poor boats or >paddlers or, as you say, you did not paddle directly into the wind but at >an angle. I have never seen any top level single sprint racers who could >beat top level tandem sprints although once one gets down in the standings >four or five places the double paddlers may have slower times than the top >singles. I suspect this comparison has more validity than mixed racing >particularly where the tandems may have poor characteristics. > > >(SNIPS all over) >> >>If you held the paddle blade directly in front of yourself that would be >>true but it would be hard to paddle much that way (but a near vertical >>stroke might provide a small benefit here). > >Maybe this needs clarification. This is, in fact what I do when paddling >strongly. Perhaps before discussing this further we need to define the >stroke under discussion. It sounds like Matt is discussing a stroke that I >would consider inappropriate for use with an untwisted paddle i.e. long >shaft, straight fore and aft stroke, and paddle held at a large angle to >the water. The old racing paddlers used this kind of stroke. The more >modern stroke sweeps across the body and gets held more vertially. I have >found the "wing" style of stroke superior when one produces high output >regardless of the paddle type (so far). I have some test paddles underway >that i hope will help clarify this. > > >If we could just get some bored university student to do some wind tunnel >test for us we would enter fat city. Failing that I guess we will have to >muddle along with less sophisticated stuff. > >Cheers, >John Winters >Redwing Designs >Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft >http://home.ican.net/~735769/ > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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