I will be taking a beginners WW course in two weeks. The facility offers training using kayaks. I have paddled OC! almost exclusively for several years. So my question to the list is this : What are the reasons why you favor either kayaks or canoes, for white water rivers, playboating, rodeo, etc. ??? THANKS -Hal *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, 29 May 1999, Hal Christiansen wrote: > I will be taking a beginners WW course in two weeks. The facility offers > training using kayaks. I have paddled OC! almost exclusively for several > years. So my question to the list is this : > > What are the reasons why you favor either kayaks or canoes, for white water > rivers, playboating, rodeo, etc. ??? > I ponder this question often, and haven't come up with a good answer. I paddle WW in both OC-1s and kayaks, depending on my mood, the water level, and how long it's been since I've been in one boat or tha other. WW kayaks are easier to learn than WW canoes. Canoe partisans refer to the double bladed paddle as "training wheels", but it's certainly true that an intermediate kayaker can make moves that an intermediate canoeist cannot. Sometimes whan I'm paddling kayak with my canoe buddies, I almost feel like apologizing when I easily drop onto a wave that they're working hard to catch. That said, I can't give up my open boats. There is an elegance to single blade paddling that kayaking can't match. Part of it may be the challenge of making moves with only one blade, part of it is the more upright position. The canoeist has better visibility and can put more of the body into the stroke. But they do fill up with water and get hard to handle. Some people think decked C-1 provides the best of both worlds, but you have to be prepared to live in pain. Paddle them all, I say. Steve Cramer Test Scoring & Reporting Services Sometimes you never can University of Georgia always tell what you Athens, GA 30602-5593 least expect the most. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I used to paddle whitewater in an OC1 - my paddling friends (kayakers) liked this because I could carry extra gear (theirs) and I made a highly visible "probe". They also often referred to my nimble little Dagger Encore as "The Barge" and made derogatory remarks about how much space I took up in an eddy. Fickle friends<g>. I think that if I were to get back into serious whitewater paddling I would choose a kayak - my 37 year old knees just get too stiff to spend a day kneeling in a C1. If you're really into the grace and beauty and technical superiority of one blade over two you might want to look into a C1. The only downside that I saw to paddling an OC1 as opposed to a kayak or C1 was that in when playing hard the boat would invariably need to be bailed out after a while - although paddling a class III drop with a boat half full of water can teach some very interesting lessons about balance and maneuvering. Dave Seng Juneau Alaska > -----Original Message----- > From: Hal Christiansen [mailto:hal_at_mbox305.swipnet.se] > Sent: Saturday, May 29, 1999 12:04 AM > To: PaddleWise (E-mail) > Subject: [Paddlewise] WHITEWATER - Kayak or Canoe ???? > > > I will be taking a beginners WW course in two weeks. The > facility offers > training using kayaks. I have paddled OC! almost exclusively > for several > years. So my question to the list is this : > > What are the reasons why you favor either kayaks or canoes, > for white water > rivers, playboating, rodeo, etc. ??? > > THANKS > -Hal > > ************************************************************** > ************* > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > ************************************************************** > ************* > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hal, A further note on the differences between an OC1 and a kayak for whitewater paddling - If you paddle an OC1, you will swim. Every time you see one of your kayaking pals do a nice roll and come back up paddling like nothing happened.....well, make the same mistake in an OC1 and the odds are you're going for a swim. One of the best paddling courses I ever took was a three day River Rescue class - in which the entire class spent nearly a whole day swimming down, across, up, under, etc, a class II-III section of river. The experience of getting to swim thru a variety of hazards in a somewhat controlled environment was invaluable! (I also fell in love with my drysuit that day, tight gaskets and all<g>) Still have a big "battle scar" on the top of my helmet from the little lesson the river thought I should learn about how not to swim over a strainer (ie. do not attempt to go feet first!) I'm not saying that you can't roll an OC1, just that it's a bit more difficult than rolling a WW kayak. I never learned. Swam a lot. Loved every minute. Have fun in your class!! Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska > -----Original Message----- > From: Hal Christiansen [mailto:hal_at_mbox305.swipnet.se] > Sent: Saturday, May 29, 1999 12:04 AM > To: PaddleWise (E-mail) > Subject: [Paddlewise] WHITEWATER - Kayak or Canoe ???? > > > I will be taking a beginners WW course in two weeks. The > facility offers > training using kayaks. I have paddled OC! almost exclusively > for several > years. So my question to the list is this : > > What are the reasons why you favor either kayaks or canoes, > for white water > rivers, playboating, rodeo, etc. ??? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hal, Oh dear, what a great opportunity to stick my neck out. I'm sure the canoists on the list will have a field day with this one. But here I go, off into the abyss..... I have a hard time understanding the use of a conoe in white water. The closed deck, lighter weight, and greater maneuverability of a white water kayak makes it so superior to the canoe, that I don't know why anyone given the choice would choose the canoe. Well, if I try real hard, I can maybe come up with two reasons to stick with a canoe in white water. If you are a committed canoe paddler who has no interest in adapting to the kayak stroke, then go with the white water canoe. Second, if you plan to do long, self-supported trips in white water, then a canoe's greater cargo capacity would be important. But for the shear paddling fun, the kayak is vastly superior in a white water setting. I should point out that I have never paddled a canoe, so on one hand, I don't know what I'm talking about. On the other hand, I've paddled in mixed kayak/conoe groups on white water and seen the different boats in action. The kayak can surf more waves, play in more holes, make tighter maneuvers, and roll much easier. In short, kayakers have more fun. ... and now I will sit back, hunker down in my kevlar boat, and brace myself for the "attack of the rabid conoe-ists". --Tim -----Original Message----- From: Hal Christiansen To: PaddleWise (E-mail) Sent: 5/29/99 1:03 AM Subject: [Paddlewise] WHITEWATER - Kayak or Canoe ???? I will be taking a beginners WW course in two weeks. The facility offers training using kayaks. I have paddled OC! almost exclusively for several years. So my question to the list is this : What are the reasons why you favor either kayaks or canoes, for white water rivers, playboating, rodeo, etc. ??? THANKS -Hal ************************************************************************ *** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ************************************************************************ *** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:20 AM 5/30/99 -0700, Mattson, Timothy G wrote: >I have a hard time understanding the use of a conoe in white water. Forgive him lord...he knoweth not what he sayeth..... Hank Hays *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, 29 May 1999, Hal Christiansen wrote: > I will be taking a beginners WW course in two weeks. The facility offers > training using kayaks. I have paddled OC! almost exclusively for several > years. So my question to the list is this : > > What are the reasons why you favor either kayaks or canoes, for white water > rivers, playboating, rodeo, etc. ??? I can't resist this either. The most succinct way of putting this is.... "Half the paddle, half the fun." (From the kayaker's perspective) OR "Half the paddle, twice the man" (From the canoeist's perspective) "Half the stick, twice the chick" (for the ladies) And there are others.... but the above succintly sums it up. So take your pick of which saying floats your ..er.. boat. If you like pure unadulterated fun, do kayaking. If you like to make things hard on yourself and eventually earn the admiration of all your lesser kayaking peers, choose canoeing. I only kayak, although canoeing looks like a viable alternative to whitewater kayaking should I ever become bored with simply kayaking (highly unlikely considering the new heights that kayaking has achieved in recent years compared to my meager skills). Canoeing really is much harder to master. However a skilled canoeist can do *anything* that a kayaker can do. This is includes surfing, spinning, cartwheeling, blunting, boofing, you name it. It just takes a LOT more skill. There is some awesome footage of Paul Danks tearing the heck out of a wave and hole on the Massive '98 demo tape. He was paddling a decked c-1 Groove. Maybe I'll take it up once I have achieved my goal of paddling more days per year than not. Oh yeah, one more thing. Kayaking may be perhaps a little bit safer since it is easier and quicker to roll back up, and the kayaker is less exposed while rolling. One of our local rapids has an unofficial new name of "spinal tap" after a fateful c-1 run. Fortunately it left no lasting scars. Good luck in your class! Kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> if you plan to do long, self-supported trips in white water, > then a canoe's greater cargo capacity would be important. With Stow-Float or similar bags, and careful packing, you can easily carry enough in many whitewater kayaks for a 3 to 4 day trip. Best, Jim *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> a skilled canoeist can do *anything* that a kayaker can > do. This is includes surfing, spinning, cartwheeling, blunting, boofing, > you name it. It just takes a LOT more skill. An apt analogy may be that whitewater canoeing is like telemark skiing. More difficult, more stylish. Some people just like it, although almost everyone would agree that it's harder. I'm a telemark skier, and I'm a kayaker. Don't want to make whitewater any more challenging than it is. Cheers, Jim *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Mattson, Timothy G wrote: > > Hal, > > Oh dear, what a great opportunity to stick my neck out. I'm sure the > canoists on the list will have a field day with this one. > > But here I go, off into the abyss..... > > I have a hard time understanding the use of a conoe in white water. <snip> > I should point out that I have never paddled a canoe, so on one hand, I > don't know what I'm talking about. <snip> As one who has paddled both- WW canoeing is a different sport. It's kind of like the difference between road and mountain biking, or XC versus downhill vs tele skiing. Different but still fun. One advantage is that lower grade rapids are more challenging without the inherent danger when you swim. Class 2 in my old ME solo canoe is about like Class 3 in my WW kayak. You're right about the gear hauling capacity. Someone has to paddle the barge- canoeor raft- for those kayak trips! Walt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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