The cover of the June issue of Sea Kayaker shows two decks loaded with packs, sleeping pads, etc. Surely this must seriously compromise the handling of the boats, especially in wind. Has anyone tried to roll with decks loaded high with stuff? I think it would be better to get a larger volume boat and keep the decks clear. Or take your narrow boat for shorter trips. Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> I think it would be better to get a larger volume boat and keep the decks > clear. Or take your narrow boat for shorter trips. Even the narrowest seakayak has plenty of room for week+ trips. If I can backpack for a week, in the mountains, in January, then the spectacular luxury of being able to comfortably carry 100lbs+ and what must be well over 10000 cu inches of gear should seem awefully nice. Of course, you have to leave the dutch oven at home.... Richard Walker Houston, TX http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Gerald Foodman <klagjf_at_worldnet.att.net> To: paddlewise <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Saturday, May 29, 1999 6:44 PM Subject: [Paddlewise] stuff on deck >The cover of the June issue of Sea Kayaker shows two decks loaded with >packs, sleeping pads, etc. Surely this must seriously compromise the >handling of the boats, especially in wind. Has anyone tried to roll with >decks loaded high with stuff? > >I think it would be better to get a larger volume boat and keep the decks >clear. Or take your narrow boat for shorter trips. > >Jerry I know a little about the picture you are refering to. The photographer and owner of the Mariner II in the picture (Craig Peterson) was on a trip entirely around Vancouver Island and was very heavily loaded with gear. Craig worked for me one summer, is a friend and sometime paddling partner. Later he paddled from the north end of Vancouver Island up the open coast to Sitka and Glacier Bay. I believethat made him the first (of now four people) to have paddled the outside coast from Seattle to Glacier Bay. I don't believe he unintentionally capsized once during either trip. I am confidant he could roll up if he did and have watched him practice climbing back in his empty (Express) kayak without the aid of a paddle float in rough seas with steady winds over 40mph and gusting to well over 50 mph(much harder this way than if the kayak is loaded with gear) . He probably could just high brace back up as the light deck load would probably not allow the kayak to capsize fully. I'm sure Craig chose lighter bulky items to store on deck which would mean the heavy stuff was low and stability was still very good (had the weather been worse the orange and blue items on his front deck would be off the deck and on his body). Also I have witnessed Craig stand up in his gear laden Mariner II for a better view, so I don't think his stability was really compromised much by the deck load . The yellow item just in front of the cockpit is his spraydeck and he would be wearing that while he paddled so it wasn't part of the deck load. I noticed on a two week trip with him last summer that Craig likes to get out of all his paddling gear as soon as he lands even for just a short time. The gear stowed on the front deck is very light but may have been placed there to help balance the windage of the rear deck load (which you notice are just behind the cockpits to minimize the lever arm the wind has on the stern). A heavily loaded kayak does not get blown around in strong winds like a light one does. Craig bought an Express after the trip in the photograph (which was 11 years ago) because it fit his smaller stature better than the Mariner II. When he planned his trip up the open coast to Glacier Bay he again bought a Mariner II especially for that trip and has used it as his only sea kayak since. Although only 21.5" wide it is a relatively high volume kayak with a lot of it usable storage space (and it apparently was the biggest kayak he was willing to paddle on this major journey). Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: R. Walker <rww_at_mailbox.neosoft.com> To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Saturday, May 29, 1999 8:26 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] stuff on deck > I think it would be better to get a larger volume boat and keep the decks > clear. Or take your narrow boat for shorter trips. Even the narrowest seakayak has plenty of room for week+ trips. If I can backpack for a week, in the mountains, in January, then the spectacular luxury of being able to comfortably carry 100lbs+ and what must be well over 10000 cu inches of gear should seem awefully nice. Of course, you have to leave the dutch oven at home.... I forgot to mention it. Craig is very good at cooking in his Dutch oven. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 06:17 PM 5/29/99 -0700, Gerald Foodman wrote: >The cover of the June issue of Sea Kayaker shows two decks loaded with >packs, sleeping pads, etc. Surely this must seriously compromise the >handling of the boats, especially in wind. Has anyone tried to roll with >decks loaded high with stuff? > >I think it would be better to get a larger volume boat and keep the decks >clear. Or take your narrow boat for shorter trips. Jerry, Being a minimalist who enjoys low-volume designs, I often start a multi-week trip with gear on the deck and slowly eat my way into the gear bags until everything fits within the hull of my Anas Acuta. You do need to balance the windage of your deckload. A mountain of gear aft can aggravate weathercocking and can cause complications if you are required to tow another paddler. Also ensure that your gear bags do not hinder your ability to extract your spare paddle(s). I don't find rolling with a deck load to be significantly more difficult than rolling with clean decks, provided that you don't get disoriented or panic by the fact that your kayak will often rest on its side without fully capsizing. You may not be able to wriggle the kayak into a inverted position in order to start a roll in your normal setup position. In this case the trick is to roll up on the proper side so that you use, rather than fight, the buoyancy of your deck load. This can be confusing to determine, especially if you are being bounced around. If confused, my strategy would be to first try rolling on my strong side, and if it fails, go to my off-side. A full deck load usually provides enough buoyancy that a quick sculling brace (on the correct side) will bring you upright. I will admit that paddling with a deck load adds a few more variables of risk and should be avoided if possible. If you choose to paddle with a deck load, then it would be prudent to invest some time practicing rolling and bracing with one. Greg Stamer Orlando, Florida *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
- -----Original Message----- From: Gerald Foodman <klagjf_at_worldnet.att.net> To: paddlewise <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Saturday, May 29, 1999 6:44 PM Subject: [Paddlewise] stuff on deck >The cover of the June issue of Sea Kayaker shows two decks loaded with >packs, sleeping pads, etc. Surely this must seriously compromise the >handling of the boats, especially in wind. Has anyone tried to roll with >decks loaded high with stuff? > >I think it would be better to get a larger volume boat and keep the decks >clear. Or take your narrow boat for shorter trips. > >Jerry As most of you regular subscribers know, I was one of the three rescued off the Storm Islands in the middle of Queen Charlotte Sound/Straight during our attempted off-season crossing in early April. The fellow who had the most difficulty, even prior to his rudder-slider breakage during the crossing, had a wide, stable boat full of gear and extra food. The boat weighed a ton. If that wasn't bad enough, he had a home-made paddlefloat on his rear deck. It was essentially a large foam cushion custom-covered in vinyl, about 15" x 8" x 20". Additionally, he had a *very* large duffle bag with more extraneous gear, also on the back deck of his already high volume touring kayak. The other fellow was paddling an Arluk 1.8 and I was in my low volume Nordkapp. There was no comparison between the two performance boats as compared to the higher-than-high windage problems being encountered by the paddler of the larger kayak with deck load. I will never again travel an open coastal section of a trip or attempt crossings with someone with such diametrically opposed style, setup of gear, and overall philosophy to open water paddling. That's not snobbery, its just plain prudence. Unfortunately, I knew this was going to be a problem when we started our trip, so the flames should come my way for going along. BTW, the duffel bag was similar to the one pictured in SK Magazine of Lone Madsen. I "wouldn't be caught dead" with a huge duffel bag on my back deck in open water - or as Hutchy would say, "Maybe I would". BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
inetex wrote: > >The cover of the June issue of Sea Kayaker shows two decks loaded with > >packs, sleeping pads, etc. Surely this must seriously compromise the > >handling of the boats, especially in wind. Has anyone tried to roll with > >decks loaded high with stuff? > > > >I think it would be better to get a larger volume boat and keep the decks > >clear. Or take your narrow boat for shorter trips. > > > >Jerry > > As most of you regular subscribers know, I was one of the three rescued off > the Storm Islands in the middle of Queen Charlotte Sound/Straight during > our attempted off-season crossing in early April. The fellow who had the > most difficulty, even prior to his rudder-slider breakage during the > crossing, had a wide, stable boat full of gear and extra food. The boat > weighed a ton. If that wasn't bad enough, he had a home-made paddlefloat on > his rear deck. It was essentially a large foam cushion custom-covered in > vinyl, about 15" x 8" x 20". Additionally, he had a *very* large duffle bag > with more extraneous gear, also on the back deck of his already high volume > touring kayak. The other fellow was paddling an Arluk 1.8 and I was in my > low volume Nordkapp. There was no comparison between the two performance > boats as compared to the higher-than-high windage problems being > encountered by the paddler of the larger kayak with deck load. Deck loads should be avoided no matter how stable a boat. If you can't get it inside, then don't bring it. Windage is a potential problem as is being hit by breaking waves that will just flip the boat when they hit such a large surface area. One of the folding kayak companies, which shall remain nameless, had a photo on the cover of its slick brochure picturing someone paddling among small ice floes. On his back _and_ front decks were huge deck loads piled up about at least 18 inches and running several feet in length. A disaster waiting to happen. Another image I have is of something I didn't see but heard about. In the late 1980s, the round-Manhattan trip had among the participants two guys in a double Klepper. It is usually a great boat for that trip, but these guys had a full cooler lashed on their back deck. Obviously they could not get that inside even a boat as cavernous as the Klepper. Picture this: a heavy cooler (ice and beverages weigh a lot) on top of the deck _and_ a boat otherwise loaded underdeck and inside the cockpit with just day stuff for a summer paddle trip. Its center of gravity was raised so high that the boat flipped near the Battery tip of Manhattan within two miles or so of the put-in. The Coast Guard had to pull them out. I heard that story from the leader a few years later who still was kicking himself for not putting his foot down and saying "no" to them. I also heard the story from the commercial interests who cited it for a long time as an example as to why kayaks and canoes should be curtailed in their use of these waters. > > I will never again travel an open coastal section of a trip or attempt > crossings with someone with such diametrically opposed style, setup of > gear, and overall philosophy to open water paddling. That's not snobbery, > its just plain prudence. Unfortunately, I knew this was going to be a > problem when we started our trip, so the flames should come my way for > going along. Yes, you should kick yourself some. But it is so easy to fall into going against your own best judgment. I don't know of anyone who hasn't done so. Obviously, as the stakes and dangers increase, it is even more important to say no and to pick your company with more of a critical eye. But as the beverage cooler incident above shows, the line may have to be drawn even in more benign situations. > BTW, the duffel bag was similar to the one pictured in SK Magazine of Lone > Madsen. Yes, that photo was an eyecatcher for quite a few people I have talked with regarding that story. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 06:08 AM 5/31/99 -0700, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: >Deck loads should be avoided no matter how stable a boat. If you can't >get it inside, then don't bring it. Windage is a potential problem as >is being hit by breaking waves that will just flip the boat when they >hit such a large surface area. Ralph, I don't agree with most blanket statements and that includes this one. I agree that windage can be a problem with a poorly balanced or excessive deckload but any competent paddler who leans and braces into a breaking wave should not capsize, deck load or not. Of course, this assumes that you are paddling a kayak that will enable you to lean and apply proper technique. I am playing devil's advocate somewhat because I will work diligently to ensure that all my gear fits within my kayak. However on a three week trip, I will not object to carrying some lightweight but bulky items on deck for a few days until there is room inside the hull. I suppose that the danger with these posts lies in the assumption of basic knowledge. I am assuming that a paddler knows to pack heavy items low and away from the extremities of the kayak. I am also assuming a small, low, light and balanced deck load. If you pack a mountain of gear on your deck or you feel a need to pack a cast iron stove high above deck then yes, don't carry a deck load (and return half of that unneeded baggage to the car). Greg Stamer Orlando, Florida *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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