After aggravating the roofers for a while, they finally went home complaining it was too hot. And this, after I provided hose and water so they could wet the shingles down so they could walk on them. How hot could it be up there, 90 - 100 - 110? Geeze, it's only June. What are they gonna do when summer gets here? They're going to tick the neighbors off again by showing up at 7am again tomorrow. So I get the epoxy kit (http://www.systemthree.com/index.html) suggested by that chemist guy and others to see if I could put some keel strips on without gluing myself to a tree. I'm mechanically challenged and had been looking at the kit with great trepidation since I got it. I had read the huge manual (at least 75 pages) and can proudly say I didn't understand a word of it. There was all kinds of stuff in the kit. I recognized a paint brush and some popcycle sticks. Oh yeah, there were plastic shot glasses with weird measurement lines on them. Also some paper cup things with other markings. There's other strange stuff like plastic fiber, wood flour, some thickener stuff, microballons and little sissy gloves like a proctologist might use. I took the 2foot by 2foot piece of fiberglass cloth and cut a few 2 inch strips. The first lesson I learned was not to pull a piece of loose fiberglass string; the whole thing starts to unravel. Oh yeah, forgot to tell you, I'm making keel strips. I'm old and tired and lazy and drag the kayak around on the stern keel and it's worn through the gel coat. I also like to paddle like hell into a landing and beach the kayak on rocks and stuff so the bow keel is a mite worn also. Anyway, I sanded both sides of the stern keel. How much did I sand? Enough so there was some dust generated. I didn't want to do a Tim Allen and sand through the hull. I then grab one of those shot glass things with the funny markings, poor some stuff from a big bottle with no label and more or less half that amount from a smaller bottle that had # 1 something on it and stirred it together with one of those popcycle stick things. I had bought a few of those tiny foam rubber disposable paint brushes and slapped some of the goo on the 2 foot worn stern keel, laid a strip of fiberglass on and slapped some more goo on top of that. I kept smearing it around until the fiberglass was pretty transparent. I started at the top of the keel and brushed downward which helped loosen the fiberglass threads even more. Dunno how I could've gotten around that problem. This whole process took a couple of minutes and when I reached over to pick up the shot glass, it was really hot. I looked up at the sun and thought maybe the roofers weren't such sissies after all. Then I looked at the shot glass again and it was smoking. On a previous Paddlewise discussion someone mentioned a smoking pot and I thought it was an old guy making inappropriate comments about the 70's. Guess maybe he was talking about these chemicals. When I tried to brush some more of the goo it was hard, as was the paint brush so I threw it away and started over with a new brush and some new goo. This time I worked a little faster. I put three layers of fiberglass on the stern and bow keel areas. A little goo dribbled down the hull but I just wiped it off with a rag. Tomorrow I'll cut off some of the stray threads and see if I can sand it down smooth. This first experience was rather interesting. Oh yeah, I didn't use those proctologist gloves. I now have very clean, very smooth fingertips. I can't see my fingerprints and figure I'm ready for a new career in the field of criminal malfeasance. Oh well, tomorrow is another glorious day of painting and roofing. But my day is coming, soon. Clyde Sisler http://csisler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Clyde Sisler <clyde_sisler_at_email.msn.com> To: Paddlewise <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Sunday, May 30, 1999 6:47 PM Subject: [Paddlewise] The Epoxy Experience >(snip)...to see if I could put some keel strips on without gluing myself to a tree. (Major snip) This first experience was rather interesting. Oh yeah, I didn't use those gloves. I now have very clean, very smooth fingertips. I can't see my fingerprints But my day is coming, soon.< Better watch those finger tips ! ...getting "epoxied" to a key board might change your Labrador trip reports.....sort of "grrrkojojoko"..depending upon which finger adheres. (GRIN) In 4 weeks when I return home to Wyoming, I need to put Kevlar skid plates on my OT Disco 17...before heading to Northwest Territories. Fortunately, if I "wreck" that job thoroughly enough , I still have time to get a real canoe...like a Bell Northwoods. :) rich dempsey riverton,wyoming ridem_at_msn.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Clyde Sisler wrote: > [snip] > > So I get the epoxy kit (http://www.systemthree.com/index.html) suggested by > that chemist guy and others to see if I could put some keel strips on > without gluing myself to a tree. > > [snip] I had read the huge manual (at least 75 pages) > and can proudly say I didn't understand a word of it. There was all kinds > of stuff in the kit. I recognized a paint brush and some popcycle sticks. > Oh yeah, there were plastic shot glasses with weird measurement lines on > them. Also some paper cup things with other markings. There's other > strange stuff like plastic fiber, wood flour, some thickener stuff, > microballons and little sissy gloves like a proctologist might use. [big snip] > This first experience was rather interesting. Oh yeah, I didn't use those > proctologist gloves. I now have very clean, very smooth fingertips. I > can't see my fingerprints and figure I'm ready for a new career in the field > of criminal malfeasance. Sounds like your repair will turn out fine. Controlled sloppyness is the hallmark of a true experimenter, Clyde! Couple tips: 0. Acetone, followed by hot soapy water, will avoid scaring the DMV when they try to verify your fingerprints ... <G> 1. A cabinet scraper will save a lot of sanding time and elbow grease. These can be used when the epoxy is still a little "green," and will make cool feathery shavings. Easier to clean up, too. (You can make your own from a drywall spreader -- something to really annoy those roofers!) 2. Use those gloves! I'm one of the lucky ones who is apparently not susceptible to sensitization to epoxy (knock on wood!), and I have had the stuff on my fingers numerous times. However, it is like playing Russian roulette it you do not use them. (I do, now, almost always. Certainly for big jobs.) Sensitization can come on suddenly, and will end your use of epoxy forever. Sanding without a mask can (I have heard) also lead to symptoms. An allergic reaction can be a serious, life-threatening thing. Back to my test tubes. Now, where was that sulphuric acid ... -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dave wrote: snip > Couple tips: > >0. Acetone, followed by hot soapy water, will avoid scaring the DMV when they >try to verify your fingerprints ... <G> snip I was told *not* to use acetone or other solvents on your hands, it seems that it puts the epoxy into solution and your hand absorbs the solution, which is bad. The best way to get epoxy off is to wear it off. Wear vinyl gloves. jim *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jim Champoux wrote: > Dave wrote: > >0. Acetone, followed by hot soapy water, will avoid scaring the DMV when they > >try to verify your fingerprints ... <G> > > I was told *not* to use acetone or other solvents on your hands, it seems > that it puts the epoxy into solution and your hand absorbs the solution, > which is bad. I've heard this before. I believe absorption of epoxy during an acetone wash is unlikely, inasmuch as acetone is not absorbed readily through the skin. Skin is remarkably impervious to most solvents. Exception: DMSO, which goes right through. However, use of acetone might increase the surface area of contact, and thereby increase the chance of sensitization. Maybe soap and water is better. I'll contact Kern Hendricks (owns System Three) to see what the authoritative word is, and report back. Thanks for raising the warning, Jim. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>>0. Acetone, followed by hot soapy water, will avoid scaring the DMV when they >>try to verify your fingerprints ... <G> >> >> I was told *not* to use acetone or other solvents on your hands, it seems >> that it puts the epoxy into solution and your hand absorbs the solution, >> which is bad. We always clean-up with vinegar, breaks down the epoxy to something a bit more benign. Vinegar wipe, then soap on all skin contacts. There shouldn't ever be skin contact but we're human so it does happen. Sensitivity of the skin to epoxy will make it impossible to work with the material ever again. Gloves - I use dishwashing rubber gloves or the heavier ones with cotton reinforcing. It is possible to shake those ones off to do something with a glove off and then slip it on again. They last a long time if washed/wiped with vinegar after each use. Was Clyde's kit a 2:1 mix or was that just what he used? It is more usual to have a 4:1 or 5:1 mix ratio and important to get it right, hence the graduated measuring vessels. I use very sensitive top-loading scales (scientific) which makes measuring and mixing so fast, especially if a second mix is required, easy to zero out the container's weight even if not quite empty. Alex *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> However, use of acetone might increase the surface area of contact, and > thereby increase the chance of sensitization. Maybe soap and > water is better. MAAS epoxies recommends (at least in the batch I got) using a waterless hand cleaner. The kit for my kayak came with a tube. They also recommended following that up once the bulk of it was off with something else, but I can't remember what it was. Woody *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>>0. Acetone, followed by hot soapy water, will avoid scaring the DMV when they >>try to verify your fingerprints ... <G> >snip > >I was told *not* to use acetone or other solvents on your hands, it seems >that it puts the epoxy into solution and your hand absorbs the solution, >which is bad. >The best way to get epoxy off is to wear it off. Wear vinyl gloves. I don't use epoxy much any more, but it is entirely cleanable with soap and water. Takes longer than acetone, of course. Acetone alone "defats" the skin, will dissolve a lot of the moisturizer out of it. I still do use some acetone, but try to limit the amount as much as possible. Acetone will also dissolve the epoxy and the skin absorbs small amounts including the epoxy which can eventually lead to (accelerate) sensitivity. Do wear gloves. Hank Hays Lightning Paddles *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> Sounds like your repair will turn out fine. Controlled sloppyness is the hallmark of a true experimenter, Clyde! Couple tips: I'm glad I made the post. I thought others, who may be hesitating to tackle a job like this, might be encouraged that a clutz like me could do it. Also the several posted warnings can emphasize the potential dangers. I either never knew that (I think I did) or I forgot (another old guy symphtom). > 0. Acetone, followed by hot soapy water, will avoid scaring the DMV when they try to verify your fingerprints ... <G> I'll say one thing for the expoxy, it leaves your fingers nice and clean. The rest of my hands were covered with paint stains but my fingers tips were perfectly clean. That way I could scratch private places with out leaving paint stains. <g> > 1. A cabinet scraper will save a lot of sanding time and elbow grease. These can be used when the epoxy is still a little "green," and will make cool feathery shavings. Easier to clean up, too. (You can make your own from a drywall spreader -- something to really annoy those roofers!) I got an email not to try sanding for a couple of days otherwise it would be like sanding gum. I did pick at a couple of little dribbles with my fingernails while it was still 'green'. I'll be finishing up this afternoon. > 2. Use those gloves! I'm one of the lucky ones who is apparently not susceptible to sensitization to epoxy (knock on wood!), and I have had the Say it again! Use those gloves! I thought since my fingers weren't sizzling there was no problem. Everytime I got expoxy on my fingers, I just wiped my fingers on the grass. I didn't want to wipe them on my pants for fear of eating them away. I suppose there's some logic in there somewhere but it escapes me at the moment. > Back to my test tubes. Now, where was that sulphuric acid ... Don't blow nothin' up! Clyde *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>0. Acetone, followed by hot soapy water, will avoid scaring the DMV when they >> >try to verify your fingerprints ... <G> >> I was told *not* to use acetone or other solvents on your hands, it seems >> that it puts the epoxy into solution and your hand absorbs the solution, >> which is bad. > I've always used vinegar to clean epoxy off my fingers and/or other inappropriate locations. Always worked well. Good idea, or a chemical timebomb? JP *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Acetone as a skin cleaner is not a good idea. Although acetone itself is not know to be absorbed appreciably through the skin, it does damage the skin. Damaged skin is more prone to allow absorption. Also a solution of partially reacted epoxy resin and hardener is more likely to be absorbed than a thick gel of the same materials. Vinegar works, but it smells. Waterless handcleaner also works and is not as hard on the skin as a straight solvent. Cheap disposable gloves are a very good idea, avoiding skin exposure is better than trying to wash the goo off. As someone noted in this thread epoxy is not fully cured for several days, long past the time it appears to be hard to the touch there are unreacted components present. When you sand epoxy you should wear a particulate and organic vapor respirator. Epoxy resins and the hardeners are sensitizers. Once you are sensitized you may never be able to work with or around the sensitizer again. Personally when I work with epoxies I wear nitrile gloves, a respirator with super cartridges (organic vapor, amine, acid gas, HEPA, + combo). If I am working where I will be generating lots of dust, sanding the bottom of a boat vs. sanding a spot repair on a paddle, I will also wear disposable coveralls. I also suggest you read the vendors Material Safety Data Sheets and safety recommendations on their webpages. When you cut through the sales hyperbole, I think you will find the above is a reasonable summary of their recommendations. It also fits with the information I have found from sources other than the vendors. As for the source of my "authority" I do safety and health for a living and, work with epoxy to fix stuff at home, so I looked the data up for myself. I suppose I need a disclaimer here so, remember boys and girls, my free advice is worth what you paid for it. Dana Dickson *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I had an elaborate summary crafted of the pros and cons of using acetone or vinegar to clean epoxy residue (cured/uncured) off your skin. Then Netscape puked and I lost it all. The bottom line(s): Dana was right, and I was wrong: acetone is not innocuous for cleaning epoxy off your skin. He's right: it can hasten breakdown of the protective barrier skin provides, thereby substantially increasing the chance of sensitization. I had forgotten that. Someone else (Phil Daligan?) indicated the West System people (I think) use a proprietary version of vinegar for cleanup, but with no mention of use on hands. Everybody agrees gloves are mandatory to avoid sensitization. Dana recommends nitrile gloves and "a respirator with super cartridges (organic vapor, amine, acid gas, HEPA, + combo)." The respirator is more than the MSDS Sheets from System Three suggest *for casual use* of epoxy (see: http://www.systemthree.com/index.html and select System Three Epoxy and (farther down the page) Part B System Three Hardener #1 ...)), so I guess each of us gets to judge that, though if I worked with the stuff regularly I probably would go Dana's route. YMMV. Finally, the owner of System Three chimed in with the post below my sig -- food for thought for the folks who advocate the use of vinegar as cleanup on skin, inasmuch as vinegar and epoxy may form compounds not tested for their reactivity and/or toxicity, just as acetone and epoxy may (ketamines). -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR humbled chemist -- >Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > >Anybody got **data** (don't need anecdotal stuff) to back up (or refute) the > >claim that using acetone to clean up increases epoxy transfer through skin? > > I don't have any data on this particular question. However, acetone will > readily react with amines forming ketamines. This is a reversible reaction > with water given off in the condensation of the ketone and amine. The > toxicology of ketamines has not been rigorously studied and I'd be more > concerned with this than with your original question insofar as health goes. > I'd be more inclined to use solvent alcohol, isopropyl alcohol or something > that would not react with amines. > > W. Kern Hendricks > System Three Resins, Inc. > P.O. Box 70436 > Seattle, WA 98107 > Orders Only: 800/333-5514 > Technical Support: 206/782-7976 > e-mail: support_at_systemthree.com > website: www.systemthree.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>Was Clyde's kit a 2:1 mix or was that just what he used? It is more usual >to have a 4:1 or 5:1 mix ratio and important to get it right, hence the >graduated measuring vessels. I use very sensitive top-loading scales >(scientific) which makes measuring and mixing so fast, especially if a >second mix is required, easy to zero out the container's weight even if not >quite empty. I used System Three'sTrial Kit. The resin came in an unmarked bottle with the instructions wrapped around it. These instructions said to use a 2:1 mix. The instructions said the large bottle was 'Part A' and was to be mixed 2:1 with 'Part B'. Once the instructions were removed from the bottle there was nothing to indicate what the large bottle was. There was no bottle labeled 'Part B'. There was one labeled '#1 Fast' which, after careful analysis, I deduced was the hardener. The analysis? Well everything else was carefully labeled and I didn't think I wanted to mix powdered wood flour or microballoon thingies. The Silica Thickener gave me pause but I thought mixing liquid and liquid was a better guess. Everything else was clearly labeled and well worth the 10 bucks. There's a fair amount of everything. I did 2 foot stern and bow strips using 3 layers of fiberglass each plus fixed a crack in a hatch cover and used less than 25 per cent of the epoxy. I used most of the fiberglass though. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks Dave, this must be my day, two Dana was right's in one post. Its highly unusual to see such things in my email. As a broad statement of principle Kern Hendricks is right to be concerned about the possible toxic effects of ketamines and the unknow reaction products of the vinegar/epoxy mixture. Good industrial hygiene practice (my profession), is to keep all chemical exposures to a minimum and to be extra cautious with unknowns. If anyone is interested in my rational for the super cartridge or the nitrile glove recommendation, I will be glad to discuss it off line. Dana Dickson > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Kruger [mailto:dkruger_at_pacifier.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 12:39 AM > To: Dickson, Dana A. > Cc: 'PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net' > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] The Epoxy Experience > > > I had an elaborate summary crafted of the pros and cons of > using acetone or > vinegar to clean epoxy residue (cured/uncured) off your skin. > Then Netscape > puked and I lost it all. > > The bottom line(s): > > Dana was right, and I was wrong: acetone is not innocuous > for cleaning epoxy > off your skin. He's right: it can hasten breakdown of the > protective barrier > skin provides, thereby substantially increasing the chance of > sensitization. > I had forgotten that. > > Someone else (Phil Daligan?) indicated the West System people > (I think) use a > proprietary version of vinegar for cleanup, but with no > mention of use on > hands. > > Everybody agrees gloves are mandatory to avoid sensitization. > Dana recommends > nitrile gloves and "a respirator with super cartridges > (organic vapor, amine, > acid gas, HEPA, + combo)." The respirator is more than the > MSDS Sheets from > System Three suggest *for casual use* of epoxy (see: > http://www.systemthree.com/index.html and select System Three > Epoxy and > (farther down the page) Part B System Three Hardener #1 > ...)), so I guess each > of us > gets to judge that, though if I worked with the stuff > regularly I probably > would go Dana's route. YMMV. > > Finally, the owner of System Three chimed in with the post > below my sig -- > food for thought for the folks who advocate the use of > vinegar as cleanup on > skin, inasmuch as vinegar and epoxy may form compounds not > tested for their > reactivity and/or toxicity, just as acetone and epoxy may (ketamines). > -- > Dave Kruger > Astoria, OR > humbled chemist > -- > >Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > > > >Anybody got **data** (don't need anecdotal stuff) to back > up (or refute) the > > >claim that using acetone to clean up increases epoxy > transfer through skin? > > > > I don't have any data on this particular question. > However, acetone will > > readily react with amines forming ketamines. This is a > reversible reaction > > with water given off in the condensation of the ketone and > amine. The > > toxicology of ketamines has not been rigorously studied and > I'd be more > > concerned with this than with your original question > insofar as health goes. > > I'd be more inclined to use solvent alcohol, isopropyl > alcohol or something > > that would not react with amines. > > > > W. Kern Hendricks > > System Three Resins, Inc. > > P.O. Box 70436 > > Seattle, WA 98107 > > Orders Only: 800/333-5514 > > Technical Support: 206/782-7976 > > e-mail: support_at_systemthree.com > > website: www.systemthree.com > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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