On Wed, 2 Jun 1999 07:47:01 +1000, Peter Osman <PeterO_at_ambri.com.au> wrote: >G'Day >(Sorry for the repeat message I forgot the title yesterday), >Doug, if the wide stable boat had been packed properly i.e no significant >deck load, do you think the boat would have been as difficult to handle? Do >you have any recommendations for users of such boats on open water >crossings? I paddle both narrow fast boats as well as wide stable boats >training to take on long open water crossings, so am interested in these >experiences. Peter, I spoke with Matt Broze today who is doing the safety report for SK Magazine on the failed crossing. He does not feel, given the wind direction we encountered, that the deck load made that much of a difference. It was more the paddler/boat. I still feel, that in a perfect world, deck loads would not be used. I also feel that, as Matt does, the paddler's profile is the biggest factor in windage, and as we can't do much about that, I'll count my blessings that I am a bit on the short side (and the air is less polluted for us shorties, too :-) ) A wide boat is a bit slower, but the differences are usually minimal, though advertising campaigns try to slant people toward the narrow kayak. However, when it comes to more extreme paddling, those small differences can be magnified as the hours tick by on the cold, angry sea where savage gusts take their toll. Of course, if you can't handle the lack of stability and subsequent expenditure of nervous energy of the narrow kayak, then maybe the wider kayak is better. Wider kayaks, BTW, do not seem to promote good paddling skills as fast as narrow ones, for obvious reasons. My Nordkapp, with a full load, has almost no freeboard. The black seam line is the water line. It is a wet ride for sure, and you need better gear on your bod, and an excellent spray-deck. In two foot choppy seas, it is a pain (the newer Jubilee is much better), but as seas build, the knifing bow comes into its own. A low profile kayak like the Nordkapp (I use this boat as an example, as that is what I paddle and is representative of narrow kayaks, though new designs have some better compromises) goes beyond issues of lower windage. Low profile/narrow kayaks have a feel all their own (especially for those with size 12 feet!). They respond to leaning and edging much more readily (usually) and the lack of foredeck hitting your knuckles is truly redeeming. You feel much more at one with the kayak. I would really like a much more stable kayak, one that I can relax in, but every time I get in a bigger kayak, I feel like I'm sinking into an abyss of glassfiber and gelcoat. This is highly subjective, but the lower volume kayaks inspire confidence, performance, and an aestetic appeal that ain't going to show up in no KAPER program or hydrostatics specifications. My ex-girlfriend once said that "once you have had black, you can never go back". Maybe size does matter, but for kayaking, "once you have paddled it low, it is the only way to go". As far as handling kayaks for longer crossings - the fellows that did the Bass Straight crossing a few years ago, found rudders beneficial over those without them, and kites or sails even more beneficial over those without them. Other than that, I hate commenting on things I do not know. I find most people on this list do not BS. Perhaps those who paddle wider boats (23" and above - what is a wider boat?) could answer your question. I will say that the ultimate is the wider than a single, double kayak with two strong paddlers. Now that is performance _and_ stability. Valley Canoe and P&H have a couple of doubles that just fly. Ralph may argue that double folders are faster as there is some "give" to them in waves, but I've seen a fast "British Heavy" low-volume double in action on an angry sea. It was pure perfection and inspiration. Anyway, train in a wide, slow kayak, then do the real thing in a faster, narrow one. Kind of like practicing with two baseball bats before you go up to bat, then when using the one, it seems so light. Also, I can't prove this due to differences in paddler stamina, but at the end of the day, when all reasonable energy has been expanded and there are still a few miles to go, I'm still trucking in my narrow yak while others have, at least mentally, "packed it in". One other thing, new paddlers in their new narrow kayaks in a following sea are an absolute liability on a trip. The bottom line: crossing should be attempted only after careful planning, preparation, and conditioning. Crossing should be done as fast as possible to minimize exposure to changing conditions for the worse. A team attempting a crossing is only as fast as the slowest person/boat combo. This is a lesson I will never forget, and one that cost the taxpayers of Canada about $8000.00 on our failed crossing in April. An expensive lesson, and an unnecessary one, really. Happy water trails. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd Doug Lloyd wrote:- >As most of you regular subscribers know, I was one of the three rescued off >the Storm Islands in the middle of Queen Charlotte Sound/Straight during >our attempted off-season crossing in early April. The fellow who had the >most difficulty, even prior to his rudder-slider breakage during the >crossing, had a wide, stable boat full of gear and extra food. The boat >weighed a ton. If that wasn't bad enough, he had a home-made paddlefloat on >his rear deck. It was essentially a large foam cushion custom-covered in >vinyl, about 15" x 8" x 20". Additionally, he had a *very* large duffle bag >with more extraneous gear, also on the back deck of his already high volume >touring kayak. The other fellow was paddling an Arluk 1.8 and I was in my >low volume Nordkapp. There was no comparison between the two performance >boats as compared to the higher-than-high windage problems being >encountered by the paddler of the larger kayak with deck load. ------------------------------ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 1 Jun 1999, inetex wrote: > I spoke with Matt Broze today who is doing the safety report for SK > Magazine on the failed crossing. He does not feel, given the wind direction > we encountered, that the deck load made that much of a difference. It was > more the paddler/boat. I still feel, that in a perfect world, deck loads > would not be used. I also feel that, as Matt does, the paddler's profile is > the biggest factor in windage, and as we can't do much about that, I'll > count my blessings that I am a bit on the short side (and the air is less > polluted for us shorties, too :-) ) Doug, I question the relevant importance of the paddler's profile in regards to weather cocking (although perhaps you were refering to forward progress against a headwind?). If the paddler's profile is so important, than why does changing boats (not profiles, how could I change that) result in differences in weather cocking. Perhaps it is the placement of the paddler on the boat that makes a difference. But no matter what, there is a narrow range of paddler placements, and the resulting torque is made small by the minimal lever arm about the center of mass, which is usually right on top of the paddler assuming the boat is packed right. (Matt, do you have any data on this?). In fact, if the paddler's profile dominated as far as weathercocking is concerned, then it would be a disadvantage to place the cockpit towards the aft of boat. I'll let all of the Mariner designs speak to the truth that the paddler's profile is really a minimal factor. Just my opinion. Cheers, kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Kevin wrote: > >Doug, I question the relevant importance of the paddler's profile in >regards to weather cocking (although perhaps you were refering to forward >progress against a headwind?). The paddlers were mostly paddling into the wind so the gear bag was most likely in the windshadow of the paddler's body. As for weathercocking it was not a factor unless they had set off on another course. >If the paddler's profile is so important, >than why does changing boats (not profiles, how could I change that) >result in differences in weather cocking. Perhaps it is the placement of >the paddler on the boat that makes a difference. But no matter what, there >is a narrow range of paddler placements, and the resulting torque is made >small by the minimal lever arm about the center of mass, which is usually >right on top of the paddler assuming the boat is packed right. (Matt, do >you have any data on this?). In fact, if the paddler's profile dominated >as far as weathercocking is concerned, then it would be a disadvantage to >place the cockpit towards the aft of boat. I'll let all of the Mariner >designs speak to the truth that the paddler's profile is really a minimal >factor. The bundle on the back deck would increase weatherhelm by adding windage and (depending on its weight) decrease weatherhelm by lowering the stern and shifting the center of lateral resistance of the hull aft. Hard to guess which would have the greater effect. But I would guess the net effect would be to slightly increase weatherhelm especially if the gear in the deckbag was lighter weight stuff. The paddlers position relative to the center of lateral resistance of the hull will determine if the paddlers windage is a factor in increasing or decreasing weatherhelm. Most of the time the paddler is pretty close to the center of lateral resistance and is not much of an effect as you suggested. But its the center of lateral resistance not the center of mass that matters here. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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