Some have written that a rudder can dangle uselessly out of the water, just when it is most needed, in big seas. I have never experience this, although I have not paddled in extreme conditions or huge surf. In many years of moderately rough conditions and following seas, I have never had an instance where the rudder on any of my ruddered boats was ineffective. Has anyone ever actually experienced loss of rudder effectiveness because of its coming out of the water? (I have had boats with and without rudders and don't favor one over the other. I also don't intend to reopen the general rudder debate.) Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Gerald Foodman <klagjf_at_worldnet.att.net> To: paddlewise <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Friday, June 04, 1999 7:39 PM Subject: [Paddlewise] rudder in/out of water >Some have written that a rudder can dangle uselessly out of the water, just >when it is most needed, in big seas. I have never experience this, although >I have not paddled in extreme conditions or huge surf. In many years of >moderately rough conditions and following seas, I have never had an >instance where the rudder on any of my ruddered boats was ineffective. > >Has anyone ever actually experienced loss of rudder effectiveness because of >its coming out of the water? > Actually it tends to happen in short steep (rough) seas rather than in big seas. It is only in steep following seas that it really becomes a problem. The length of the rudder, the length of the stern (longer can lift the stern higher off the back of a wave) and how low the rudder is mounted all make a difference. It barely took a ripple to lift the rudder out of the water on the original Solution XL (due to the rudder's high mounting position and the boat's length). Even in flat calm water its rudder only penetrated a few inches. I'm sure anyone who get a kick surfing wind waves in gales and boat wakes at the intersection of divergent and transverse waves, like I do, is familiar with this phenomenom. It's not just the rudder that comes out of the water its the narrow stern sections at the stern that on calmer days would help the kayak to track. Unfortunately it is just when the stern is out of the water that the kayak is on a position on the wave that most strongly promotes the tendency to broach. This is also the reason that drop skegs are mounted further forward even though it would be a lot simpler, less troublesome, more leak resistant, and increase gear capacity to mount them back near the stern. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com >(I have had boats with and without rudders and don't favor one over the >other. I also don't intend to reopen the general rudder debate.) > >Jerry > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 6/4/99 9:31:27 PM Central Daylight Time, klagjf_at_worldnet.att.net writes: > Has anyone ever actually experienced loss of rudder effectiveness because of > its coming out of the water? I had a very long day once on Lake Superior with a Dagger Sitka. This boat has an "integral rudder", the rudder doesn't stick down below the hull. I was in a strong tailwind with a couple of friends, one with a heavy British skeger the other with a "normal" rudder boat. At the point at which the boat would start to need a little rudder, my friends tell me it was a foot above the water. This was after I would use all the lean and sweep tricks I could. (I do know how to paddle) The only way to bring it back was a severe lean with a low brace and a strong reverse sweep. (I think I might have taught a few fish some new language that day) I have owned several boat and traveled a lot in all of them. I've never had a problem like I did with that boat. I suspect it was more than just a rudder issue? ( I have a theory on the hull design, but wouldn't pretend that I could sit in on the Swede/fish form hull issue with this group:-) That boat found a new home soon after. I have seen "normal" rudders come out of the water, but it's usually pretty big water before it happens. This is worth what you paid for it. YMMV Rob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Doug wrote: > However, it is entirely possible, and in my case, >experiential, to have local wind-wave transposed upon the bigger sea. This >sea state situation further exasperates broaching tendencies when it is at >different angles to the larger swell, as some of the other techniques of >edging and leaning can be inhibited if too dangerous or require countless >hours of corrective action. Why would edging and leaning techniques be too dangerous? Aren't these the very techniques that keep you upright? >I would suggest a thick bungy cord >haul-down that would be hands-free. Current Designs uses that type of >system (there may be others, but Jerry has a CD boat so he can relate to >the illustration). The rudder will lift up over the obstruction, then snap >back down into the water as you glide along. This mechanism does indeed work well. I have asked companions to observe the rudder as I deliberately went through kelp in different conditions and the rudder snaps right back down. > A well designed sea kayak generally has an ability to remain >stable in a trough where the bow and stern are still supported yet retain >the waterline. I thought the problem was when the boat was on a crest, with the ends, and the rudder, out of the water. >I added 4 inches to my stock VC rudder, and find this works well with my >Nordkapp which is slender toward the stern. How important is this increase in length? It seems to me that the Nordkapp slender stern would cause the rudder to lift only rarely any way. Did you actually find that the VC rudder was too short in practice or did you increase its length on general principles. >I have limited the >right and left "set" so as not to cause too much inefficiency in the water, >and only use it when I absolutely need to. Why not just rely on not applying too much rudder rather than mechanical limits? >We have a company on Vancouver >Island that makes kayaks (two current models) called Extreme Interface. >Their rudders retract into the hull. When in the down position, they never >see "air time". They are a "drop-skeg-rudder-kind-of-thing" I guess. >Apparently they work well, and I mention it to show you that designers are >addressing the problems in some interesting ways. > Never heard of these boats. Do they have a web site? Matt wrote: > It is only in steep following seas that it really becomes a problem. >The length of the rudder, the length of the stern (longer can lift the stern >higher off the back of a wave) and how low the rudder is mounted all make a >difference. ...... I'm sure anyone who get a kick surfing wind waves in gales and boat >wakes at the intersection of divergent and transverse waves, like I do, is >familiar with this phenomenom. It's not just the rudder that comes out of >the water its the narrow stern sections at the stern that on calmer days >would help the kayak to track. Unfortunately it is just when the stern is >out of the water that the kayak is on a position on the wave that most >strongly promotes the tendency to broach. I guess I haven't been in steep enough seas to notice this phenomenon. The rudder on my narrow sterned CD GTS has not come out of the water and I can prevent a broach with small rudder corrections, sometimes with a bit of additional stern rudder with the paddle. Basically the same technique used with my Mariner Express with full stern, except of course that the leans and stern rudder are much more effective. The lifting rudder that you cite for the Wilderness Systems XL may therefore be a function of the total boat design rather than attributable to the narrow stern alone. Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 7:10 PM -0700 6/4/99, Gerald Foodman wrote: >Has anyone ever actually experienced loss of rudder effectiveness because of >its coming out of the water? > Yes. In short steep chop and sharply breaking waves. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 10 Ash Swamp Rd Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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