Mike Wagenbach wrote: >Yikes!!! I'm glad I didn't read that before going to Pacific >Beach to surf yesterday! > >Are white sharks resident in Washington/BC waters? I think someone posted about 3 months back that there have been no documented shark attacks north of the California/Oregon border. (or was that WA/OR border?) Anyhow, Washington/BC looks pretty safe no matter which one I remember correctly! Shawn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "M. Wagenbach" <wagen_at_u.washington.edu> > Yikes!!! I'm glad I didn't read that before going to Pacific Beach to surf > yesterday! > > I did think briefly about sharks, but even small surf is enough to fully > occupy my attention, so that lasted only until I got back into the crests. > I did see three small, brown porpoises, which would have been cause for > alarm if I'd read that post earlier! > > Are white sharks resident in Washington/BC waters? > > Mike Wagenbach Hi Mike, Yup, they are there. But chance of attack is so slim it is almost nonexistent. Check out http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/sharks.html for more info on sharks and links to shark sites. Dr. Erich Ritter, Senior Scientist of the Green Marine Institute gave permission to post his response to Dr. Cherry's encounter. I have included it below and hope it helps. Other than he thinks I'm a guy :-) I found it very interesting and informative. A couple of other questions he answered in another message that are not included in the message below are: (1) A lot of continual noise may attract sharks as they are very curious and arythmical frequencies travel through the water keeping them interested (2) Do not string dead fish alongside a kayak. That's potential food for sharks. (3) Zebra stripes painted on the bottom of the kayak won't make any difference (I asked because of the note made by the couple conducting their "Transglobal Sea Kayak Expedition"). I liked his wording... "It's like whisteling in the dark. If you believe in it, go for, but truth is, these animals are way too smart for anything like that..." (more from Dr. Ritter below) Cheers, Jackie ----- Begin Included Message ----- Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 08:21:45 -0500 Subject: Your encounter From: "Erich K. Ritter" <eritter_at_greenmarine.com> To: doccherry_at_home.com CC: jackie_at_intelenet.net Dear Dr. Cherry, Mr. J. Fenton forwarded your story to me. I am a shark behaviorist (specialised in shark-human encounters) and investigate shark attacks for the Global Shark Attack File... I had numerous encounters with white sharks, and your very detailled description let me "see" the whole encounter. It was a "curiosity approach" of the shark - you were never in danger. A sudden move (on your side) would most like have triggered a "take off" of the animal. White sharks are very curious, and inquisitive... two things you mentioned were important: its very slow speed, and the circles. Whites do prefer to swim right under the surface when "exploring"... I know the feeling very well when one of these submarines show up, very intimidating but always remember: sharks do not know what a human being is, and have no concept for anything we built, so whenever a super predator shows up he is most likely there to investigate. Unfortunately there is too much misinformation out there about white sharks and why they bite surfers etc. and it is this hype that prevented that you could have enjoyed your encounter. If you happen to be circled again, enjoy it. And please do not consider hitting the animal with anything - THIS may trigger the opposite reaction one may hope to accomplish. Sincerely, EK Ritter ************************************************************** Erich K. Ritter, Ph.D. Senior Scientist, GREEN MARINE Institute Email: eritter_at_greenmarine.com GREEN MARINE 11517 S.W. 64th Street #A Miami, FL 33173, USA Phone: 305 275 0030, Fax: 305 275 7088 Email: info_at_greenmarine.com Web site: www.greenmarine.com GREEN MARINE is a trademark of Global Green Marine Inc. ***************************************************************** ----- End Included Message ----- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Last weekend (Nov. 6-7) we did an overnight canoe trip on the Peace River, from Zolfo Springs to Gardner, Fl. I want to use this opportunity to express my disgust about what is going on on this river. While we were waiting for our shuttle to be set, we saw 5 busloads of paddlers being dumped at the put in at Prairy Creek park, by the Canoe Outpost and Canoe Safaries. And more must have been brought in earlier. Most of these paddlers were very loud already, and stuffed their canoes with coolers and suitcases of beer, not being bothered by the presence of other, non-commercially-outfitted, nature loving paddlers. During the waves of these annoying rednecks coming over, we even lost some of our gear. Once on the river we were constantly bothered by obviously intoxicated river users: they flipped their canoes, leaving their stuff floating down river, they were loud, annoying, and hitting on the females in our group. And they were everywhere! By the end of the day, while looking for a campsite, there was no way to avoid these hords of neanderthals: all potential campsites were taken. We ended up on a muddy site, as far away as possible from the noise. But still, after dark there was no way not to be bothered by the noise produced, which culminated when loud fireworks were set off next to us in the middle of the night! We were looking forward to a quiet weekend on the Peace River, away from the Homecoming madness in Gainesville. But this was even worse. And it is not only my own peace that I am worried about, I am worried about the river. I was disgusted by all the trash that is floating around, and I can see that the landowners are not happy with the hundreds of people camping on the banks each weekend, without any facilities around. Obviously nobody cares to dig a pit for his/her droppings, fire circles are everywhere, clothslines are left behind, and then there is the trash! Beer cans and glass everywhere! Needless to say that I had a very bad experience this weekend. And I blame this on the commercial outfitters, who obviously make good money out of the exploitation of the precious natural resources ($60 per canoe). I am not an advocate of alcohol restrictions, adults should know how to drink responsibly. But in this case I think it would help a lot when alcoholic beverages would be banned from the river, to weed out the people who should be in a bar, and not on a beautiful river. And I think that the commercial outfitters can do a lot to help achieve this: just don't allow beer in the bus. In the end this may even help their businesses survive! For now I will not advise anybody to go paddling on the Peace River. Peter van den Hurk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Do the "rednecks" have any less right to enjoy their pastimes on their river, then we do? It's a tough question with no easy answer.. Cya Bob Denton Delray Beach -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Peter van den Hurk Sent: Monday, November 08, 1999 12:40 PM To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net; gasp_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: [Paddlewise] Peace River experience Last weekend (Nov. 6-7) we did an overnight canoe trip on the Peace River, from Zolfo Springs to Gardner, Fl. I want to use this opportunity to express my disgust about what is going on on this river. While we were waiting for our shuttle to be set, we saw 5 busloads of paddlers being dumped at the put in at Prairy Creek park, by the Canoe Outpost and Canoe Safaries. And more must have been brought in earlier. Most of these paddlers were very loud already, and stuffed their canoes with coolers and suitcases of beer, not being bothered by the presence of other, non-commercially-outfitted, nature loving paddlers. During the waves of these annoying rednecks coming over, we even lost some of our gear. Once on the river we were constantly bothered by obviously intoxicated river users: they flipped their canoes, leaving their stuff floating down river, they were loud, annoying, and hitting on the females in our group. And they were everywhere! By the end of the day, while looking for a campsite, there was no way to avoid these hords of neanderthals: all potential campsites were taken. We ended up on a muddy site, as far away as possible from the noise. But still, after dark there was no way not to be bothered by the noise produced, which culminated when loud fireworks were set off next to us in the middle of the night! We were looking forward to a quiet weekend on the Peace River, away from the Homecoming madness in Gainesville. But this was even worse. And it is not only my own peace that I am worried about, I am worried about the river. I was disgusted by all the trash that is floating around, and I can see that the landowners are not happy with the hundreds of people camping on the banks each weekend, without any facilities around. Obviously nobody cares to dig a pit for his/her droppings, fire circles are everywhere, clothslines are left behind, and then there is the trash! Beer cans and glass everywhere! Needless to say that I had a very bad experience this weekend. And I blame this on the commercial outfitters, who obviously make good money out of the exploitation of the precious natural resources ($60 per canoe). I am not an advocate of alcohol restrictions, adults should know how to drink responsibly. But in this case I think it would help a lot when alcoholic beverages would be banned from the river, to weed out the people who should be in a bar, and not on a beautiful river. And I think that the commercial outfitters can do a lot to help achieve this: just don't allow beer in the bus. In the end this may even help their businesses survive! For now I will not advise anybody to go paddling on the Peace River. Peter van den Hurk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bob Denton wrote: > > Do the "rednecks" have any less right to enjoy their pastimes on their > river, then we do? It's a tough question with no easy answer.. > From: Peter van den Hurk [snip] > > We were looking forward to a quiet weekend on the Peace River, away from > > the Homecoming madness in Gainesville. But this was even worse. And it is > > not only my own peace that I am worried about, I am worried about the > > river. I was disgusted by all the trash that is floating around, and I can > > see that the landowners are not happy with the hundreds of people camping > > on the banks each weekend, without any facilities around. Obviously nobody > > cares to dig a pit for his/her droppings, fire circles are everywhere, > > clothslines are left behind, and then there is the trash! Beer cans and > > glass everywhere! Sandy (I believe) has since weighed in with her evaluation of this incident, and she was not offended or put off. OTOH, Peter's description sounds horrific. I think I'd have been in Peter's camp, though I can understand Sandy's "go with the flow" attitude. The part which locks me up, though is this: if paddlers (fat, skinny, red-necked or green-necked -- makes no difference) abuse shorelines in the way Peter alleges, I would not blame landowners and/or public officials if they shut down camping. We have lost camping on the ocean beaches round here for EXACTLY that reason. That is where I also disagree with Bob. If others are so negligent that MY opportunity to use a public resource is eliminated, then it does become a concern of mine. We need to be vigilant about this. In Oregon, there was an attempt a couple years ago to pass a law which would have greatly reduced paddlers' use of streamsides (below high water marks) -- fueled by landowners' concerns over abuses like those on the Peace River. Thanks to a strong effort by paddlers, including paddleshops (Alder Creek comes to mind), the initiative was defeated. Lobbying and political action to keep our paddling access rights are practical realities these days. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 11/08/1999 4:06:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, BDenton_at_aquagulf.com writes: << Do the "rednecks" have any less right to enjoy their pastimes on their river, then we do? It's a tough question with no easy answer.. >> Well, I was going to keep my mouth shut but....... I was part of a group of 15 Miami Group Sierra Club members on the Peace River three weekends ago (Oct. 23-25). It was pretty much as described in the original story. The busloads of canoers with all their gear and radios started arriving before daylight -- and they kept coming and coming. We had to squeeze in for a chance at the ramp before the next busload. Yes, we saw some tipping and stuff floating and we were worried about not finding any camping space. The trash was deplorable and a river cleanup is definitely in order. I picked up quite a bit of trash at the take-out. Perhaps there is a more positive way to educate and encourage river users to be more conscious of the visual and real damage. "If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem" is roughly how that saying goes, I believe. Then there is always the cartoon character Pogo who said, "We have seen the enemy, and the enemy is us." That said, we had a great time. Everyone we passed (or passed us) was friendly, waved, chatted. The canoes seemed to spread out and there was no real congestion. We found a great camping spot, did not hear anyone else's noise, and had a whale of a time "tubing" with our PFD's on. I do espouse a "live and let live" attitude, so perhaps am more tolerant than others. We had hours of solo paddling and enjoyed the serenity of the river. Sandy Kramer who can usually manage to have a good time wherever she goes Miami *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
...I think we can agree to draw the line at strewing the river and its shores with trash, don't you? >Do the "rednecks" have any less right to enjoy their pastimes on their >river, then we do? It's a tough question with no easy answer.. > >Cya > >Bob Denton >Delray Beach > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >[mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Peter van den >Hurk >Sent: Monday, November 08, 1999 12:40 PM >To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net; gasp_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subject: [Paddlewise] Peace River experience > > >Last weekend (Nov. 6-7) we did an overnight canoe trip on the Peace River, >from Zolfo Springs to Gardner, Fl. I want to use this opportunity to >express my disgust about what is going on on this river. While we were >waiting for our shuttle to be set, we saw 5 busloads of paddlers being >dumped at the put in at Prairy Creek park, by the Canoe Outpost and Canoe >Safaries. And more must have been brought in earlier. Most of these >paddlers were very loud already, and stuffed their canoes with coolers and >suitcases of beer, not being bothered by the presence of other, >non-commercially-outfitted, nature loving paddlers. During the waves of >these annoying rednecks coming over, we even lost some of our gear. Once on >the river we were constantly bothered by obviously intoxicated river users: >they flipped their canoes, leaving their stuff floating down river, they >were loud, annoying, and hitting on the females in our group. And they were >everywhere! By the end of the day, while looking for a campsite, there was >no way to avoid these hords of neanderthals: all potential campsites were >taken. We ended up on a muddy site, as far away as possible from the noise. >But still, after dark there was no way not to be bothered by the noise >produced, which culminated when loud fireworks were set off next to us in >the middle of the night! > >We were looking forward to a quiet weekend on the Peace River, away from >the Homecoming madness in Gainesville. But this was even worse. And it is >not only my own peace that I am worried about, I am worried about the >river. I was disgusted by all the trash that is floating around, and I can >see that the landowners are not happy with the hundreds of people camping >on the banks each weekend, without any facilities around. Obviously nobody >cares to dig a pit for his/her droppings, fire circles are everywhere, >clothslines are left behind, and then there is the trash! Beer cans and >glass everywhere! > >Needless to say that I had a very bad experience this weekend. And I blame >this on the commercial outfitters, who obviously make good money out of the >exploitation of the precious natural resources ($60 per canoe). I am not an >advocate of alcohol restrictions, adults should know how to drink >responsibly. >But in this case I think it would help a lot when alcoholic beverages would >be banned from the river, to weed out the people who should be in a bar, >and not on a beautiful river. And I think that the commercial outfitters >can do a lot to help achieve this: just don't allow beer in the bus. In the >end this may even help their businesses survive! For now I will not advise >anybody to go paddling on the Peace River. > >Peter van den Hurk > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
How do you define trash? My last trip in the 10,000 Islands National Park area of the Glades I was camped out on a designated, reserved campsite. On the other side of the Key were some young fishermen camping out, drinking and having a great time. Their area is what I would consider totally trashed, but it didn't bother them... Think about it. There may be 250 drunken canoeists and 20 kayakers. Who's river is it? Who's aesthetics should be followed? I would guess that the real trash in that river is invisible, namely the contaminated runoff from the campaign contributing untouchable sugar conglomerates. cya ----Original Message----- From: Bob Volin [mailto:bobvolin_at_bestweb.net] Sent: Monday, November 08, 1999 10:18 PM To: Bob Denton; 'Peter van den Hurk'; PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net; gasp_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Peace River experience ...I think we can agree to draw the line at strewing the river and its shores with trash, don't you? >Do the "rednecks" have any less right to enjoy their pastimes on their >river, then we do? It's a tough question with no easy answer.. > >Cya > >Bob Denton >Delray Beach > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >[mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Peter van den >Hurk >Sent: Monday, November 08, 1999 12:40 PM >To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net; gasp_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subject: [Paddlewise] Peace River experience > > >Last weekend (Nov. 6-7) we did an overnight canoe trip on the Peace River, >from Zolfo Springs to Gardner, Fl. I want to use this opportunity to >express my disgust about what is going on on this river. While we were >waiting for our shuttle to be set, we saw 5 busloads of paddlers being >dumped at the put in at Prairy Creek park, by the Canoe Outpost and Canoe >Safaries. And more must have been brought in earlier. Most of these >paddlers were very loud already, and stuffed their canoes with coolers and >suitcases of beer, not being bothered by the presence of other, >non-commercially-outfitted, nature loving paddlers. During the waves of >these annoying rednecks coming over, we even lost some of our gear. Once on >the river we were constantly bothered by obviously intoxicated river users: >they flipped their canoes, leaving their stuff floating down river, they >were loud, annoying, and hitting on the females in our group. And they were >everywhere! By the end of the day, while looking for a campsite, there was >no way to avoid these hords of neanderthals: all potential campsites were >taken. We ended up on a muddy site, as far away as possible from the noise. >But still, after dark there was no way not to be bothered by the noise >produced, which culminated when loud fireworks were set off next to us in >the middle of the night! > >We were looking forward to a quiet weekend on the Peace River, away from >the Homecoming madness in Gainesville. But this was even worse. And it is >not only my own peace that I am worried about, I am worried about the >river. I was disgusted by all the trash that is floating around, and I can >see that the landowners are not happy with the hundreds of people camping >on the banks each weekend, without any facilities around. Obviously nobody >cares to dig a pit for his/her droppings, fire circles are everywhere, >clothslines are left behind, and then there is the trash! Beer cans and >glass everywhere! > >Needless to say that I had a very bad experience this weekend. And I blame >this on the commercial outfitters, who obviously make good money out of the >exploitation of the precious natural resources ($60 per canoe). I am not an >advocate of alcohol restrictions, adults should know how to drink >responsibly. >But in this case I think it would help a lot when alcoholic beverages would >be banned from the river, to weed out the people who should be in a bar, >and not on a beautiful river. And I think that the commercial outfitters >can do a lot to help achieve this: just don't allow beer in the bus. In the >end this may even help their businesses survive! For now I will not advise >anybody to go paddling on the Peace River. > >Peter van den Hurk > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have also experienced scenes similar to what was described on the Peace while I was on other rivers, and I thought there were too many people being put on the river. But, I don't think it is fair to assume that all private boating parties are good and all outfitters are bad. Of course - it depends. I have watched an outfitter regularly pick up trash along the river (so his customers would have a nice time and perhaps to help compensate for his customers' impact). He was mostly cleaning up the trash of private boaters and fisherman, however. I have also seen a guide/outfitter's group stand out in a positive way while in a sensitive area. I was along with a commercial trip (from a paddling school) that had a small number of kayakers who were learning how to tread lightly in this fragile area and how to avoid disturbing the marine mammals and other wildlife. We saw many examples of careless private boaters and renters who refused to use good sense (or follow the marine mammal protection regulations). The guide even tried to nicely inform some private boating "nature lovers" they were actually disturbing the seals and otters they were trying to watch (who were obviously way too close by anyone's good sense). I found it ironic that this commercial trip not only behaved the way a private group from a conservation club would behave, but also taught the customers how to become responsible paddlers and not add to the probems if they were to ever return as private boaters or renters. Frank *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
There was a few Great White sightings by fishermen off of Barkley Sound (West coast of Vancouver Island) during the last El Nino. Ordinarily, the water is too cold for Great Whites, so I would put them very low on the worry scale. :) Jim Meldrum > I think someone posted about 3 months back that there have been no > documented shark attacks north of the California/Oregon border. (or was > that WA/OR border?) Anyhow, Washington/BC looks pretty safe no matter > which one I remember correctly! > Shawn > > ************************************************************************** > * *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I used to scuba and snorkel in Cape Town, South Africa. Great Whites were common. One of my more memorable experiences was snorkeling over a particularly large specimen, at least 50' in length when seen through a mask, but probably closer to 15 or 16 feet. The water temperature is typically in the 40s and low 50s, similar to the Pacific North West. cya -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net] On Behalf Of Jim Meldrum Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 12:51 PM To: 'baker_at_montana.com'; 'paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net' Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] great white There was a few Great White sightings by fishermen off of Barkley Sound (West coast of Vancouver Island) during the last El Nino. Ordinarily, the water is too cold for Great Whites, so I would put them very low on the worry scale. :) Jim Meldrum > I think someone posted about 3 months back that there have been no > documented shark attacks north of the California/Oregon border. (or was > that WA/OR border?) Anyhow, Washington/BC looks pretty safe no matter > which one I remember correctly! > Shawn > > ************************************************************************** > * *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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