Due to server problems, I am resending this message. I apologize if you previously received it. Debs > ---------- > From: Reeves, Debbie (Debbie) > Sent: Monday, September 27, 1999 3:37 PM > To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net; 'rww_at_neosoft.com' > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Saturation Point > > > > ---------- > Matt wrote: > The landowners just don't want us on what they > > have long considered there property even though it legally isn't. There > > have been incidents of paddlers being threateded by an irate landowner > > with a shotgun while standing legally on public property. > > Richard wrote: > Dial 911. I've never heard of this happening on a Texas beach. On a > hill > country river, yes, but a public ocean facing beach? Never. > > And I respond that this very thing happened to a group of us 3 weekends > ago. We were paddling on Barnegat Bay (NJ) and had crossed over to the > lighthouse. Down the shoreline just a bit from the light is a public > municiple parking lot (dirt), used heavily by fisherman and 'water > gazers' which is bulkheaded (facing the bay). The bulkhead is necessary > due to the amount of wind (waves) and its being located right next to a > very busy channel (big wakes). Where the bulkhead ends the water cuts > back into a sizable quiet area. On the left is a beach (still part of the > municipal lot). To the right and down a ways is a private marina. Now, > back out on the bay are some very old pilings, 10 ft off shore, to the > right end of the bulkhead and they were at one time, I guess, a barrier > wall. To the right of that is the "motorway" into a private marina. As > we paddled in to land on the municipal beach, we were yelled at and > threatened by the marina workers. This argument lasted several minutes > with us trying to explain that we had a right to be on the water and them > screaming the water "belonged" to the marina. Well, now all the fishermen > are pissed off and they're yelling (taking our side), the pedestrians are > yelling (taking our side). It was very ugly. If the marina dude had had > a gun, he certainly would have been firing it over our heads. Since there > is NO WHERE else to land and get out of the boats on this side of the bay, > we had to exit our boats out on the bay (in the waves and wakes) and > standing in waist-deep water hoist all the boats up over the bulkhead. It > sucked. Later, the foot police came on their usual rounds and I grab him > and explain what had happened. We were all shocked to hear that Mr. > Marina had been on the legal side of the law. As the police explained it > to us, he owns and insures the marina. The marina apparently is defined > as the bottom land AND "all the water covering it" that the "motors" must > use to gain access to it. So there you have it, at least here at the > Barnegat Bay in NJ. Mr. Marina owns the water (all of it). > > Let's see. To get to Texas I drive south and then turn right . . . > > Debbie Reeves > Sandy Hook, NJ > > > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-- > > From: Reeves, Debbie (Debbie) > > Sent: Monday, September 27, 1999 3:37 PM > > To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net; 'rww_at_neosoft.com' > > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Saturation Point > > > > > > > > ---------- > > Matt wrote: > > The landowners just don't want us on what they > > > have long considered there property even though it legally isn't. There > > > have been incidents of paddlers being threateded by an irate landowner > > > with a shotgun while standing legally on public property. > > > > Richard wrote: > > Dial 911. I've never heard of this happening on a Texas beach. On a > > hill > > country river, yes, but a public ocean facing beach? Never. > > > > And I respond that this very thing happened to a group of us 3 weekends > > ago. We were paddling on Barnegat Bay (NJ) and had crossed over to the > > lighthouse. Down the shoreline just a bit from the light is a public > > municiple parking lot (dirt), used heavily by fisherman and 'water > > gazers' which is bulkheaded (facing the bay). <SNIPPED> I am not certain I follow all of Debbie's description but marinas do consider that the water within the perimeter they create with bulkheads, wave attenuators, etc. is their property. By right, they can keep you out under ordinary conditions. But, if your boat, big or small is disabled, or attempting to escape a raging sea or storm, you would have a right to pull in. It is something called safe harbor or safe haven law. By tradition, any vessel can tie up to any pier when in such a jam. We run across the latter situation every so often at the North Cove in the World Financial Center in lower Manhattan just a half mile south of the Downtown Boathouse. This place is filled with major yachts that pay thousands of dollars a foot to be there. The sign at the narrow entrance to this luxury marina says "No Jet Skiis, No Kayaks" (interesting bedfellows we are in the eyes of the marina operator). If you just paddle in for sightseeing, you probably should not be there. But every so often a paddler caught by a strong ebb current impeding his return (it can hit about 3 knots or more along the seawall there) to the Downtown Boathouse has ducked into the North Cove Marina for a breather. That paddler would be within his rights to be there no matter how much they yell at him. Just claim safe harbor right. It would be interesting to see what would happen if they try to have you arrested, etc. best, ralph BTW, it was just such a incident as Debbie's, or similar one I should say, that led to the creation of official Parks Dept kayak launch sites in NYC. A pioneer paddler in these parts, Chuck Sutherland, tried to pull up into an area about 15 years ago to make a phone call or grab a Coke when he and his group were prevented from landing. Chuck got peeved and within about a year he instigated the official kayak launch system. I came along a bit later and fine tuned it and expanded the number of sites as well as wrote a guide to them for a local paddling club. This is an extension of the old saying about rather than curse the darkness, light a candle. If you don't like something, do something about it. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I am not certain I follow all of Debbie's description but marinas do > consider that the water within the perimeter they create with bulkheads, > wave attenuators, etc. is their property. In Texas, they can not. This has been litagated extensively, and our state constitution is *very* clear. If its underwater, it ain't yours. [except for small creeks and drainage ditches.] If, after a hurricane, your home is now on the public beach, guess what. It ain't yours no more. Gone. Post Toasties. Sometimes, if the beach builds back up, the state government will RE-title the property to you, but they don't have to if they don't want to. > By right, they can keep you out under ordinary conditions. In NY/NJ apparently. Not in Texas. Richard Walker Houston, TX http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> standing legally on public property. > > Richard wrote: > Dial 911. I've > never heard of this happening on a Texas beach. On a > hill > country > river, yes, but a public ocean facing beach? Never. > > And I respond > that this very thing happened to a group of us 3 weekends > ago. We were > paddling on Barnegat Bay (NJ) and had crossed over to the > lighthouse. > Down the shoreline just a bit from the light is a public > municiple > parking lot (dirt), used heavily by fisherman and 'water > gazers' which I was talking specifically about Texas. New England has always seemed to me to be a very strange and hostile place. To be honest, if I had to choose between living in Mexico, or living in New England, I'd much rather live in Mexico, even if it would take me a couple years to become linguistically tolerable. > sizable quiet area. On the left is a beach (still part of the > municipal > lot). To the right and down a ways is a private marina. Now, > back out > on the bay are some very old pilings, 10 ft off shore, to the > right end > of the bulkhead and they were at one time, I guess, a barrier > wall. To > the right of that is the "motorway" into a private marina. As > we > paddled in to land on the municipal beach, we were yelled at and > > threatened by the marina workers. This argument lasted several minutes > > with us trying to explain that we had a right to be on the water and them Don't argue. Thats the biggest mistake people make in my opinion. Let'em yell, IF YOU ARE IN THE RIGHT. As soon as someone raises their voice to me, they instantly become written off as unworthy of the effort of conversing. If they physically threaten, call the cops, don't talk to the criminally inclined, it rarely makes things better. > their usual rounds and I grab him > and explain what had happened. We > were all shocked to hear that Mr. > Marina had been on the legal side of > the law. As the police explained it > to us, he owns and insures the > marina. The marina apparently is defined > as the bottom land AND "all > the water covering it" that the "motors" must > use to gain access to it. > So there you have it, at least here at the > Barnegat Bay in NJ. Mr. > Marina owns the water (all of it). See, every state has different laws, you have to know the law of the state that you live in. I can understand me not knowing NJ law, but those who live in Jersey should know the laws of Jersey. > > Let's see. To get to Texas I drive > south and then turn right . . . > > Debbie Reeves > Sandy Hook, NJ Sounds about right, it'll only take you 30 hours or so to reach freedom. Of course, it'd probably cost less to just pay the marina guy for the use of his ramp like everyone else on the water does. [or rent a slip if its a truly private marina.] But then you'd never know what real freedom feels like. Richard Walker Houston, TX http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> ---------- > From: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com[SMTP:rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com] > > I am not certain I follow all of Debbie's description but marinas do > consider that the water within the perimeter they create with bulkheads, > wave attenuators, etc. is their property. > I guess our confusion was that the marina did not have a full perimeter bulkhead. The motorway separated the public bulkhead and the private bulkhead. With our bows ON the public beach, Mr. Marina was steaming that we were in his water. Now I know this is splitting hairs, but if our boats were barely afloat in water that was lapping the public beach, wouldn't that be public water? If the water over "his" land is his, wouldn't the same be true of water over the public land? (A note for those who don't know me; I am extremely conscientious about where I tread. I am unwilling to be the one that causes some land lubber to think "I hate those kayakers". At the time, this situation angered me because it put the group in such a precarious position. We could have stayed and fought for our rights due to the unsafe conditions, but the human situation became volatile so quickly with so many different people getting into the fight that we made the decision to get out of there and let things calm down. Clearly, it is not just the kayakers who are feeling the squeeze of access limitations since everyone on shore instantly jumped into the disagreement. I'm no longer angry; after all, Mr. Marina was within the law. Now I'm just concerned.) Debs *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> ---------- > From: R. Walker[SMTP:rww_at_mailbox.neosoft.com] > > Don't argue. Thats the biggest mistake people make in my opinion. > None of us (kayakers) argued or yelled. That seemed to be taking place over our heads between the land lubbers on the two sides. They were still screaming at each other (it was a considerable distance between the two 'camps') after we had quietly retreated back out to the bay. > See, every state has different laws, you have to know the law of the state > > that you live in. I can understand me not knowing NJ law, but those who > live in Jersey should know the laws of Jersey. > Well, Richard, we thought we did. The shoreline lands around my home area (alas we thought the whole state) are public to the high-tide mark and the water has always been public regardless of what it was over. Debs *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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