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From: Hendrik Maroske <HMaroske_at_exmail.de>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] experience with folding seakayaks
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 20:57:22 +0200
> Hi all,
> 
> I am looking for a folding seakayak that is in handling and speed 
> comparable to hardshell boats. Are there people on this list with 
> hands on experience in boats like the Feathercraft K1 or 
> Khatsalano, or the longer single seat Nautiraids (greenlander 500). 
> Or may be other alternatives?
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> Merijn  
> 

<Voice from the underground>

Hmmm, since nobody answered this, I take this as my turn:

having built a few folding aluminum baidarkas, I don't think they
were in any respect similar to harsdhell boats. Although I wanted
each kayak to be comparable with hardshell kayaks and took
some pain to achive the best results, neither rigidity, nor
speed under paddle were as good. 

The only thing being, when my boss gave me an airplane ticket 
from Germany to Canada on a Friday this summer, I got there on 
that very Sunday and had a kayak with me; _my_own_kayak_ :)) 

Anyway, you might want to look at something narrow and rigid;
I never saw anything in the market that was foldable and would
match at least my selfbuilts with regard to rigidity. They only
_do_ assemble a lot easier.

With each kayak, rudder size would decrease; now, it is merely 
a third of what I had on the first baidarka. Maybe it has 
something to do with development of construction and paddler...

One thing to consider is handling during rescue (-training).
I haven't seen any folding kayak that would match my desires in 
this case. So I have equipped my recent folder with retractable 
compass and hatchcover-mounted pump in order to survive at
least a TX-style rescue; also, I have lowered the deck beam to 
help with rolling.

Cheers

Hendrik
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From: <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] experience with folding seakayaks
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 15:48:36 -0700
Hendrik Maroske wrote:
> 
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I am looking for a folding seakayak that is in handling and speed
> > comparable to hardshell boats. Are there people on this list with
> > hands on experience in boats like the Feathercraft K1 or
> > Khatsalano, or the longer single seat Nautiraids (greenlander 500).
> > Or may be other alternatives?
> >
> > Greetings,
> >
> > Merijn
> >

> Hmmm, since nobody answered this, I take this as my turn:
> 
> having built a few folding aluminum baidarkas, I don't think they
> were in any respect similar to harsdhell boats. Although I wanted
> each kayak to be comparable with hardshell kayaks and took
> some pain to achive the best results, neither rigidity, nor
> speed under paddle were as good.

I am not certain what is the situation with the boats that Hendrik has
hand crafted but there are certainly some commercially available folding
kayaks that are no slouches in the speed department.  The Feathercraft
Khatsalano is generally recognized as a very fast boat with less than a
half dozen non-racing commercially available hardshells being faster. 
Stepping down from the Khatsalano, the Feathercraft K-1 and some of the
Nautiraids are certainly as fast as a lot of other hardshells.

I think a lot of the image regarding folding kayak speed is one of
thinking in terms of clunky doubles paddled by occasional paddlers in
comparison to solo paddlers in hardshells.  When it comes to the
singles, the folding kayaks can be quite fast, length for length, with
hardshells.

> Anyway, you might want to look at something narrow and rigid;
> I never saw anything in the market that was foldable and would
> match at least my selfbuilts with regard to rigidity. They only
> _do_ assemble a lot easier.

I haven't seen these hand crafted folding kayaks but I can't imagine
anything stiffer than the Nautiraid singles.  If you pick one up by one
end and shake it up and down, there is virtually no flex at all...i.e.
they are incredibly rigid; their frames use more cross-ribs and
stringers than do other folding kayaks and their external sponsons add
lots of rigidity.  Feathercrafts have a bit more flex to them.  Folbots
an incredible amount of flex.

> One thing to consider is handling during rescue (-training).
> I haven't seen any folding kayak that would match my desires in
> this case. So I have equipped my recent folder with retractable
> compass and hatchcover-mounted pump in order to survive at
> least a TX-style rescue; also, I have lowered the deck beam to
> help with rolling.

The commercially available folding kayaks are regularly used in TX
rescues with no damage; I've seen it done several times this summer with
nothing happening by way of damage.  I suppose if the boats were not
carrying airbags to reduce the amount of water that gets inside in a
capsize than perhaps some damage may result to deck bars, BUT no one
should ever venture out in any folding kayak (even if using a sea sock)
without air flotation bags over and above the sponsons that are normally
built in.  The same would be true for any hardshell that does not have
bulkheads and for polyethylene kayaks whose bulkheads are generally
suspect and prone to leak and pop if flooded in a capsize.

The deck bars on folding kayaks can take punishment.  I once had a very
heavy fellow trip over while near my K-Light on dry land.  He fell flat
with all his weight on the bow deck right between two crossribs: unlike
when sitting in water, the boat had no where to sink into to absorb the
punishment (as it might in a TX rescue).  The result: The top deck bar
was ever so slightly bent at the point where it connected to another bar
but did not need replacing or fixing.  I shudder to think what would
have happened with the deck of a kevlar boat.

As for rolling, some folding kayaks roll okay; perhaps not as well as
many hardshells, but they can be rolled.  Ken Fink reports that he
regularly teaches people how to roll using the K-Light.  And I have
never seen anyone who does have a good roll fail when getting into the
single folding kayaks from Feathercraft, Nautiraid and Klepper.  At
worse a good roller cannot do his full array of rolls as he might in his
own boat or slimmer boats but that also would be the case with some of
the hardshells too, i.e. it would be difficult to do every type of roll
in every hardshell single.

BTW, I saw a double Klepper rolled the other day.  I had heard of people
doing it but two guys at the Boathouse decided to give it a try.  They
failed the first time; swam the Klepper back to the dock.  Got their
coordination straightened out and went out and did two effortless rolls
in a row. 

ralph diaz
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

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From: Elaine Harmon <eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] experience with folding seakayaks
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 17:46:22 -0400 (EDT)
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Hendrik Maroske wrote:


So I have equipped my recent folder with retractable 
> compass and hatchcover-mounted pump in order to survive at
> least a TX-style rescue; also, I have lowered the deck beam to 
> help with rolling.

Sorry if this is another dumb question, but why would lowering the deck
beam help with rolling? e

Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu

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From: <SKILLIANS_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] experience with folding seakayaks
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 18:28:21 EDT
My boss never gives ME a ticket to go anywhere on ANY afternoon! I think the 
closest that I've been is when she offered to punch my ticket a few weeks 
ago...
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