Elaine Harmon wrote: > Also, a bit back you recommended putting reflective tape on the paddle > blade backs. What tape do you recommend; source? Mike Daly wrote: >3M Scotchlite tape is good. Very bright and the adhesive backing >sticks quite well. Available in several colors and widths. I can >get it around here, by the foot, from several outdoor shops as well >as bike shops. Some fabric stores have the sew-on type if you want >to dress up your PFD (it's not legal though) or paddling clothes. Don't tell anyone, but I bought a bunch of grosgrain ribbon with a Scotchlite strip from Seattle Fabrics to put on my PFD! Maybe I can make removable loops of the stuff that slips onto the shoulder straps to escape the PFD-Nazis! Shawn Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 1999 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi guys, what is this business about no reflective tape on PFD's? (Colin, is that a rule in the UK also?) What's the rationale? e Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Elaine Harmon wrote: > > Hi guys, what is this business about no reflective tape on PFD's? (Colin, > is that a rule in the UK also?) What's the rationale? e > Nothing wrong with reflective tape on PFDs. Look at the Lotus line for examples. What's not allowed is modifications of PFDs. Coast Guard doesn't know how the mods were done, so takes the position that any mod is a no-no. Does this make much sense? No. But it's the law (or at least the regs) Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I wrote: > ....<snip>... Maybe I can make removable loops of the stuff that >slips onto the shoulder straps to escape the PFD-Nazis! Dan Hagen wrote: > Hmmm. There sure are a lot of Nazis involved in sea kayaking. ...<snip>... > perhaps we should just add a new category--the-Anyone-who-disagrees- > with-me-is-a-Nazi" Nazis. > >Or maybe we should ease off a bit on the use of epithets. Just a >thought... Sorry, you're right Dan. My use of "PFD-Nazi" should be replaced by the term "Over-zealous USCG boarding officer who-is-having-a-bad-day and notices-the-shiny- retroreflective-tape-that-shouldn't-be-there-on-my-PFD". I didn't mean to offend anybody of Jewish, German, or Coast Guard origin, really! Shawn -- Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 1999 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This whole issue of putting reflective tape on a PFD or adding pockets or zippers or anything is a specious argument. Does anyone think for a second that USCG crew members are going to have any idea of what is original to your PFD? They are not exactly carrying around catalogs with pictures of all the models of PFDs past and present and specific specs.. However, if you are absolutely worried about a possible violation (which again I can't see happening at all), then get one of those cheapie orange horse collar PFDs that cost around 10 bucks and throw it into your kayak. Remember the only requirement is that you have an approved PFD accessible in your boat. Then wear the PFD you want with all the bells and whistles you want to add. The thing is that the Coast Guard will be so happy to see you wearing any PFD at all that they won't examine it nor will they press you to the point that you will need to whip out that "inspection" PFD. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > > This whole issue of putting reflective tape on a PFD or adding pockets > or zippers or anything is a specious argument. Does anyone think for a > second that USCG crew members are going to have any idea of what is > original to your PFD? They are not exactly carrying around catalogs > with pictures of all the models of PFDs past and present and specific > specs.. Ralph speaketh wisdom. I modify my PFD's at will and with abandon. However ... I am not an outfitter. Read on. The CYA crowd may be concerned that if there is a fatality/injury, someone from the legal profession will sieze on the "violation" of having something nonstandard on the PFD. This is a potential problem for folks (like outfitters) who do trips *for hire.* It is very difficult for me to see this becoming an issue if **I** modify **my** PFD and do not loan it out to others. I doubt my heirs will sue me for negligence leading to my own death. 'Course, my son is a reasonable person ... must be his Mom's DNA that made him so nice! <g> 'Round here, neither the USCG nor the Sheriff's Department Marine Patrol give a rip if you have a "modified" PFD. They do check for 'em, however, and for flares, whistle, light for night travel, etc. BTW, our Sheriff guy is very professional and very squared away -- not at all like some of the folks others hve alluded to. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 22:30 10/27/99 -0700, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: Eric Sonett wrote: >> I agree with you about the USCG but some states require that an approved PFD >> be worn in boats such as kayaks. >Yes, local regs may be tougher than those of the Coast Guard. colorado says essentially the same as the uscg on lakes and flat bodies of water, and says "must be worn" on moving water. most of our water is COLD all year ... and i see many, too damn many, boaters on the water without pfds ON ... they should swim once, just too see how unprepared they really would be. i don't want to see it mandated, but i'd also like to see common sense being used. mark [oh, maybe this should have been under strong opinions on the bio thread, thankfull we still don't have a helmet law in colorado... duckin' 'n runnin'] -- #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.jacknjillz.com/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page -- Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. --Pablo Picasso *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Real-To: Paddlewise <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> At 22:30 10/27/99 -0700, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: Eric Sonett wrote: >> I agree with you about the USCG but some states require that an approved PFD >> be worn in boats such as kayaks. >Yes, local regs may be tougher than those of the Coast Guard. colorado says essentially the same as the uscg on lakes and flat bodies of water, and says "must be worn" on moving water. most of our water is COLD all year ... and i see many, too damn many, boaters on the water without pfds ON ... they should swim once, just too see how unprepared they really would be. i don't want to see it mandated, but i'd also like to see common sense being used. mark [oh, maybe this should have been under strong opinions on the bio thread, thankfull we still don't have a helmet law in colorado... duckin' 'n runnin'] -- #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.jacknjillz.com/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page -- Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. --Pablo Picasso *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 22:30 10/27/99 -0700, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: Eric Sonett wrote: >> I agree with you about the USCG but some states require that an approved PFD >> be worn in boats such as kayaks. >Yes, local regs may be tougher than those of the Coast Guard. colorado says essentially the same as the uscg on lakes and flat bodies of water, and says "must be worn" on moving water. most of our water is COLD all year ... and i see many, too damn many, boaters on the water without pfds ON ... they should swim once, just too see how unprepared they really would be. i don't want to see it mandated, but i'd also like to see common sense being used. mark [oh, maybe this should have been under strong opinions on the bio thread, thankfull we still don't have a helmet law in colorado... duckin' 'n runnin'] -- #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.jacknjillz.com/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page -- Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. --Pablo Picasso *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 10/27/1999 10:59:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes: << certainly a whistle would pose no danger to a new or inexperienced paddler other than the possibility of swallowing (all the more reason for a big storm whistle). >> I have the small flat whistle and was wondering if I really should have gotten, the big, bulky, ugly one. (I know - depends on how much you want to be heard - right?). Seriously, are the small ones pretty good? Sandy Kramer *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sandykayak_at_aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 10/27/1999 10:59:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes: > > << certainly a whistle would pose no danger to a new or inexperienced > paddler other than the possibility of swallowing (all the more reason for a > big storm whistle). >> > > I have the small flat whistle and was wondering if I really should have > gotten, the big, bulky, ugly one. (I know - depends on how much you want to > be heard - right?). > > Seriously, are the small ones pretty good? > > Sandy Kramer As in many things in life, bigger and more is better. You can never be too thin or have too big a whistle. Just remember the safety advice regarding where to place the whistle. It should not be in a pocket (hard to get at in an emergency), it should not be tied to your zipper pull (there is many a case of the whistle getting caught while doing a self rescue and opening up your zipper...I am talking about a PFD zipper :-)). Tether it with a shortish line to the shoulder of your PFD or other fairly high spot so you can get it into you mouth. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 06:50 AM 10/29/99 -0400, Sandykayak_at_aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 10/27/1999 10:59:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes: > ><< certainly a whistle would pose no danger to a new or inexperienced >paddler other than the possibility of swallowing (all the more reason for a >big storm whistle). >> When I was first getting into kayaking I bought one of those large orange storm whistles. I don't recall the brand but the claim on the package is that it is the worlds loudest whistle and can even be heard under water. I do most of my paddling on Cayuga lake and put in on the "inlet". There are several boat marinas in the inlet. Fairly often there is a bit of motor boat traffic and the Ithaca College and Cornell crew teams are out there practicing as well as a few solo scull rowers. I keep the whistle atttached to my vest high on the left pocket where I can get to it quickly. A few months ago there was a large group paddle going out that was going out and meeting near a boat ramp. A woman was standing on the dock and trying to get the attention of everyone so that she could get a group picture. She yelled a few times and then said, "hey, I've got a whistle" and pulled out one of those little flat whistles and tweeted a couple of times. In my best Crocodile Dundee impersonatation I said, "That's not a whistle...This is a whistle" and blew mine loud. My ears rang for a bit but it got everyones attention. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Patrick >Also, who makes good reflective tape that one could use on paddle blades? > Check out the 3M brand at West Marine, about $1.75 a foot. I have tried several brands over the years I find the 3M the most durable. The first 3M tape I purchased was about nine years ago and is still on my Sea Star. I have purchased some tape for another boat about two years ago and the top clear film is delaminating. I wonder if they changed their construction method? I find the older tape held together much better than the newer purchase. Even with the newer 3M reflective tape is better than the other brands of tape I purchased in the past. Note; I only used the tape on my boat not my paddle. I would like to know if there is better brand out there? Arthur *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Elaine Harmon wrote: > > Hi guys, what is this business about no reflective tape on PFD's? (Colin, > is that a rule in the UK also?) What's the rationale? e It's illegal to modify any PFD, even to make a modification that would obviously make it safer. I believe this is a Canadian CG regulation too. There are some commercial PFD's with reflective tape (Lotus L'Ocean comes to mind) but YOU (or I) can't take a Lotus Lola and put reflective tape on it, even though it makes it exactly like the USCG-approved L'Ocean. You also can't add pockets to a PFD that doesn't already have them, again, even if you're just making small pockets to hold flares and a mirror; maybe they figure you'll store your Genuine Canadian Ballast Rocks in them and then you'd lose your 15.5 lbs of USCG mandated bouyancy. I um, know a guy, yeah, I know a guy, and he's going to add some reflective strips to his PFD, and maybe an additional small pocket to hold a space blanket and survival kit, but I won't name names! Shawn -- Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 1999 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 10/27/1999 3:40:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, baker_at_montana.com writes: << I um, know a guy, yeah, I know a guy, and he's going to add some reflective strips to his PFD, and maybe an additional small pocket to hold a space blanket and survival kit, but I won't name names! >> Shawn, I agree. You definitely shouldn't name names. HOWEVER, perhaps you could ask "him" how "he" intends to attach the pocket? If "he" decides to sew it on (as opposed to "gluing"), please tell "him" to seam seal the stitches like we do for tents. The needle pricks the fabric and makes teensy holes. Seam sealant is available at, obviously, camping and such stores, and also the likes of Wal-Mart. Sandy Kramer *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Elaine, I don't suppose it is an issue of adding reflective tape. It is the issue of altering the PFD. As with altering any product (bars on rack systems) you run the chance of voiding your warranty. Manufacturers cannot and should not be held responsible for the performance of their products after being altered by end users. The case of Pfd's is even more specific as they are Coast Guard approved AS MANUFACTURED. Well, that's what I think anyway. Bruce WEO www.wholeearthoutfitters.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shawn W. Baker wrote: > ....<snip>... Maybe I can > make removable loops of the stuff that slips onto the shoulder straps to > escape the PFD-Nazis! Hmmm. There sure are a lot of Nazis involved in sea kayaking. :-) In addition to all the other categories of Nazis referenced on this list, we now have the PFD Nazis. Perhaps someone should alert the antidefamation league. Or perhaps we should just add a new category--the "Anyone-who-disagrees-with-me-is-a-Nazi" Nazis. Or maybe we should ease off a bit on the use of epithets. Just a thought... Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shawn said, "... Don't tell anyone, but I bought a bunch of grosgrain ribbon with a Scotchlite strip from Seattle Fabrics to put on my PFD! Maybe I can make removable loops of the stuff that slips onto the shoulder straps to escape the PFD-Nazis!" It's not the addition of retroreflective tape that's likely to violate the Coast Guard certification of the PFD, Shawn. It's material modification --- like adding another pocket or something --- that's going to compromise the manufacturer's certification. For what it's worth --- and not wanting to get into my annual rant about retroreflective tape --- it's by far and away the single best passive safety measure you can add to a boat, paddle, PFD or clothing. That, and a mirror and strobe, are the best things you can carry, in my opinion --- not because you're planning to go night paddling but because your day trip could go long, earlier sunsets, and a chance at inadvertent night paddling gets better this time of the year. And the tape comes from personal experience in the South China Sea, where there's a guy walking around today who, by all rights, shouldn't be. He had reflective tape on his helmet --- which is about all the idiot had when he punched out of his plane --- and the reason I got his dumb derriere back to the ship was 'cause he at least had tape on his hat. The stuff flat out works, folks. Buy some SOLAS stuff if you're going to buy anything --- ACR stuff at a boat shop is not that expensive --- and use it on th! ! e upper parts of your PFD. White's brightest --- colors are okay, but not as bright. And it coordinates and accessorizes so well! Jack *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: > It's not the addition of retroreflective tape that's likely to violate >the Coast Guard certification of the PFD, Shawn. It's material >modification --- like adding another pocket or something --- that's >going to compromise the manufacturer's certification. I know, Jack, it's the letter of the law that says that you should not materially modify the jacket, whether it be reflective tape, a pocket, or a 50 lb. anvil. Technically, anything you add will compromise the certification. The spirit of the law is keeping PFD's in a serviceable condition to save lives. If I...er..or that guy I know..adds a strip or two of retroreflective tape, and a pocket (PFD came with one, but for argument's sake) to hold flares and a mirror, I'm..um, he..is not breaking the spirit of the law. I'm sure the law has been written this way since life jackets used kapok floatation that was contained in heavy plastic bags. Sewing anything to the jacket would risk puncturing the plastic and reducing the jacket's bouyant properties. This isn't so much the case with PVC and PE foam floatation. I am thinking about adding a small zipper to the top of the mesh panel between the front and back panels of my Lotus Rio Grande, to make a spot to store my space blanket and survival kit. It's not a highly accessible location--I figure I'm not going to need bandaids, matches, and a space blanket if I'm floating around. They might be nice to have if I wash up on shore. Besides, I want to have that stuff with me, and putting it in one of the front pockets already cramped with flares, whistle, mirror, chap stick, spare compass, and sunscreen not only takes up extra room, but I could risk losing something IMPORTANT while I'm digging in there for the chapstick. I realize I'm opening a small can of worms here, but by bending the law, I believe I'm actually being safer than by strictly following the law. >White's brightest --- colors are okay, but not as bright. And it >coordinates and accessorizes so well! And remember to not rely solely on the tape; the person seeing the tape must have a light source fairly near their eyes for the light to be reflected back. Your suggestion for a strobe and mirror is a good one. Shawn -- Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 1999 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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