Mark wrote; ( SNIP) > > An interesting aspect of Mark's project has to do with when a kayak with > > auxiliary sail power becomes a sailboat with auxiliary paddle power. This > > might seem like splitting hairs but it has a lot of importance from a design > > standpoint. > Since there is no widely accepted definition, I have always just worked > with my own practical terms. One place I have always drawn my personal > line is mentioned above. If a boat can not be converted back to a kayak > when needed, I have always considered it a sailboat or kayak based > sailboat. Is convertability an adequate basis for calling a sailboat a kayak and vice versa? I have often paddled a rowboat using a double bladed paddle. Does that make it a kayak? Is not changing from paddle to oars much easier than changing from paddle to sail? > > Anyway, the problem a designer faces has to do with the fact that sails can > > generate more power than a person paddling so one has to decide whether to > > use a higher prismatic coefficient (Cp) for the sailing or a lower Cp for > > the paddling. Generally one also likes to use more fullness higher up > > forward to reduce trim forward when running under sail while preferring a > > finer entry on a kayak. Next one has to face whether the boat must sail to > > windward. Do you use a keel, lee boards, bilge boards, centerboard or what? > > All affect the hull design and impact on paddling. > > You and I seem to approach this from different starting points. Your > questions arise from trying to design features into a boat hull to > optimize its performance for a given purpose, hull design decisions. I > only rarely work on hull designs. Absolutely. Perhaps that explains why I design boats for paddling and you make sails for sailing. Of course, I also design sailboats for sailing, power boats for powering and row boats for rowing. Oddly enough, keeping them separate doesn't pose any problems - for me. (SNIP) >You or others may rightly feel that these > boats are engine auxiliary sailboats or trimarans. My feeling is that > if the boat can be converted at will back to a paddling craft, it still > remains functionally a sailing kayak. I suppose the relative term "at will" impacts on this kind of discussion. Perhaps a definition of that would help. Difficult to discuss these things when people have different ideas of what the terms mean. > > The pedants among us might suggest that kayaks that get sailed more than > > paddled belong in the sailing mailing lists. :-) > I can certainly understand your point of view and usually duck and cover > before I put sail and kayak on the same paddlewise page. Jackie's "- > Anything to do with paddling boats!" is, unfortunately for the pedants, > fairly broad and does leave the door open for some of us less desirables > to sneak in on rare occasion. Hardly "less desirables". I sense you think I object to the discussion of sailing rigs on kayaks. Not so although I do wonder at what point the discussion becomes one suitable for a sailing list rather than a paddling list. You may have provided the answer. (SNIP) > I guess this goes back to the same personal risk evaluation that was > discussed before in regard to the single use type kayaks. I am not sure > that I can agree that these demands (self bailing and self righting > ability) on a boat like a sailing kayak should be higher than those used > in near shore conditions. It seems like most boating accidents happen > near the hard. Possibly because most boating gets done close to land? While at sea one cannot stop and put ashore for sleep etc. Would it not be nice to be able to sleep, eat, tend to bodily functions etc. without fear of capsize? > I personally have done most of my offshore work on > trimarans and a proa and feel really insecure on balasted keelboats or > other boats that are not positively buoyant when holed. I too have done a considerable amount offshore sailing in tris and cats and I take issue with your comments but I think that topic belongs on the sailing mailing lists. >The idea of > hanging lead from a boat is not intuitive to me. I think that a sailing > kayak that is of a scale that can be manhandled for self rescue is more > appealing than the (inappropriate and non productive comments snipped) . Perhaps one needs to think "outside the box". Not all ballast need come from lead nor did I suggest that. You have boldly leapt to conclusions. I wonder if the term "self rescue" has much validity except in one's mind. It assumes a kind of constant readiness rescue oneself. Indeed, the idea of "self - rescue" implies a failure of some sort. If al goes well, why does one need rescuing? Your optimism has an interesting aspect when one considers the possibility of getting sick, tired disoriented, or suffering from some form of psychological disorder due to stress induced by the constant need to remain upright through ones own efforts. >I do not advocate > passagemaking to others in paddling or sailing kayaks or balasted > monohulls. Risk assement has to be a personal evaluation and I will not > personally readily accept standards imposed from the outside simply > based on conventional wisdon for another type of craft. Actually I did not write anything about personal risk assessment. I wrote about the inherent safety of boats and how to make a sea kayak safer for open water passages. One cannot function at 100% all the time and can't put ashore when convenient. If one chooses not to take advantage of added safety then feel free to do so. As longtime readers of Paddlewise know, I support freedom of choice even to not wearing your lifejacket. >I do not think > the standards as outlined in Marchaj's book can be applied across the > board to my ideal sailing kayak. Which of Marchaj's propositions do you think fail to apply? >I am not disagreeing with your > position for you, particualarly as you are expected to be conservative > when consulting profesionally, but some of that doesn't work for me > personally (as opposed to professionally). I think you have gotten off on your personal preferences while I was talking about boats and their characteristics. I doubt seriously if you have any knowledge of what people expect of me when they consult me. > encourage kayak passagemaking of any kind. I feel that any kayak needs > floatation but some of the features you might advocate from the Marchaj > information are perhaps more appropriate to larger boats. Why cannot a ballasted boat still have positive flotation? Which of Marchaj's points don't you feel apply? Why do they only apply to larger boats? Should we consider a capsize a good thing? >As far as > Lindemann goes, I have read it several times and I do not think it is > clear whether his makeshift outrigger induced the capsizes as it is > widely interpreted or merely failed to prevent them for apparent design > reasons. Was it not clear that the capsize resulted from inadequate secondary stability? Would a self righting boat have not been more likely to return to an upright condition and save Lindemann spending the night clinging to an overturned boat? > > I will be curious if anyone else cares to weigh in on that one. I can > just hear the roar now when the new self bailing and righting kayak > regulations are introduced. I don't recall suggesting regulations. By shifting the discussion you have employed what is sometimes called the "Straw man fallacy" in logic. People often use this in hopes of making the other persons arguments look silly by distorting, exaggerating, or misquoting a person. Mark, I expect better from you. >It should be interesting to see these > ultimately idiot-proof 400 pound kayaks. We should probably include > mandatory electronics at the same time;-) Why would a self righting kayak have to weigh 400 pounds? Why should anyone foresee mandatory electronics? What part of my post suggested any kind of legislation? Mark, I have little knowledge of your personal motivations. I much prefer to talk about boats, their equipment and how they impact on safety and paddling. I think you perceived my post as an attack on your motivations but you could not have drifted further off course. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************Received on Fri Nov 26 1999 - 14:53:46 PST
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