In a message dated 11/8/99 10:12:48 PM, dkruger_at_pacifier.com writes: << The part which locks me up, though is this: if paddlers (fat, skinny, red-necked or green-necked -- makes no difference) abuse shorelines in the way Peter alleges, I would not blame landowners and/or public officials if they shut down camping. We have lost camping on the ocean beaches round here for EXACTLY that reason. That is where I also disagree with Bob. If others are so negligent that MY opportunity to use a public resource is eliminated, then it does become a concern of mine. >> This is an issue that goes to the heart of all public uses of property from the use of private property to the use of public lands. As far as I am concerned, my right to use any facility ends when it infringes on another's right to peacefully use that facility. Obviously, in such a broad statement there are lots of exceptions. One is when the prevailing culture of that place is such that it offends some, then they probably should know this is a place they don't want to recreate and find another. If you don't like gay beaches, don't go where men hold other men's hands. OTOH, if the use offends the owners of the properties effected, they have a primary right to control how it is used up to a point. Use of the shores is a privilege, not a right. Privileges always carry obligations and in this case it is caring for the places we use and using them so that they are available for all to use, not just your kind. > Do the "rednecks" have any less right to enjoy their pastimes on their > river, then we do? It's a tough question with no easy answer... I don't think it is at all hard to answer. The rivers aren't "their" rivers but rivers that belong to all of us. Common courtesy should dictate. Of course, there are a lot of people who don't know what that means. That is why we lose our privileges to use them. The "vacation" mentality that overtakes people who are camping is astounding. They do things they would never do if they had to face the neighbors the next day. There is a wide gap between a legal right and a social right. I do not know that society has granted anyone the right to keep others awake all night, to litter, or to destroy public property. I do know the law proscribes such behaviors. Just because there is no litter patrol out on the river doesn't make it right that they leave their dropping all over the place. Just because there is no cop to tell them to turn it down doesn't make it right that they spend the night at 120 decibels. In the case of public parklands, there are more and more people demanding access to them. That is one reason our sport is growing at such a tremendous rate. If we want to use these lands we must, as Dave Kruger said, "be vigilant" that the behavior of the few doesn't take from us all the privilege of using the shores of the national waterways. We have to speak up and have our side of the story heard. That goes beyond the governmental bodies we should communicate with. It goes to informing people like the outfitters of the issues of the way they run their businesses. I know a number of these outfitters are young men just starting out and they haven't thought this all the way through. They have an image of a floating party. They need to be encouraged to think beyond the current season if they want to stay in business. Private put-ins can have sings reminding people of the obligations that go hand in hand with the privilege of using the rivers, such as do not litter, just as many of the public parks do. If we look like we are loosing the use of the shores we need to speak to the cause of that lose. We can loose it to closure or because other people using the land and rivers make it either unappealing or dangerous, as well as by overt legislation such as posting the shores. We must speak to these issues or those with louder voices will have us confined to small circles of water that have no shore and that no one else wants to use. That is why I plan to go to the hearing on Friday to speak to the issue of Sunday hunting in Maryland. Just last Saturday it sounded like WWIII while paddling a half mile on the Potomac River. I don't want to stop the hunters but I do want one day when it is safe to ride my horse or paddle a boat. This is the only way I know to at least tell someone who makes these decisions what I want. The bottom line for use of any public space is that your space stops at my space. That is the only way society can function peacefully and as we have more and more people out there our "space" will bet smaller and smaller. That is the price of use of public places. In a message dated 11/9/99 8:35:39 AM, BDenton_at_aquagulf.com writes: << How do you define trash? My last trip in the 10,000 Islands National Park area of the Glades I was camped out on a designated, reserved campsite. On the other side of the Key were some young fishermen camping out, drinking and having a great time. Their area is what I would consider totally trashed, but it didn't bother them... Think about it. There may be 250 drunken canoeists and 20 kayakers. Who's river is it? Who's aesthetics should be followed? I would guess that the real trash in that river is invisible, namely the contaminated runoff from the campaign contributing untouchable sugar conglomerates. >> Trash is not an aesthetic issue alone but one of maintaining the intercity of an environment. Rusting cans leach into waterways. Those plastic thingys that hold the beer/soda cans trap birds, paper leaches chemicals into the water, plastic bags kill birds and other animals. Just the buildup of trash despoils the space. In general, I'd bet that there are less than 2 drunken canoeists for every 2000 others using the space. Kayakers aren't the only users who want untrashed places to paddle in. Most people do not dump a lot of trash. It is the one or two bits they allow to fall to the ground as they travel. An apple core is no harm but the gum wrapper will be there for years. The soda can will be there even longer. It is the thoughtless dumping, like I see all time out of car windows. To retain the appeal and viability of the space to the majority of users, each user has to be responsible and be made aware that their personal behavior will directly effect the retention or closure of public spaces. Joan Spinner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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