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From: Mel Grindol <grindol_at_my-deja.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Wetsuit for cool water
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 10:53:45 -0800
On Fri, 12 Nov 1999 21:50:27   Ralph Diaz wrote:
>
>And remember the bottom line...this is all in the non-dry suit realm. 
>In a _dry_ suit with a decent amount of fleece underneath and hand,
>neck, foot and head protection, you could hang out for an incredibly
>long time in water in 40 degrees and lower.  

Reading the paper on Sunday I read about a shipwreck in the gulf of Alaska.  A 52 foot boot sank in 20 foot seas.  From the time the boat sank till the rescue helicopter appeared to pluck three men from the water was 80 minutes.  All three were wearing "survival suits."  I'm assuming this is some form of dry suit?  They all had mild hypothermia and were released from the emergency room.

This is a long time to stay in the water that was undoubtedly below 40F, and probably closer to freezing than 40, and have only mild effects from the exposure.  Definitely a testament to the ability of a good dry suit.

Mel
---
There are three types of people, those who can count and those who can't.




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From: <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Wetsuit for cool water
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 14:54:56 -0800
Mel Grindol wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 12 Nov 1999 21:50:27   Ralph Diaz wrote:
> >
> >And remember the bottom line...this is all in the non-dry suit realm.
> >In a _dry_ suit with a decent amount of fleece underneath and hand,
> >neck, foot and head protection, you could hang out for an incredibly
> >long time in water in 40 degrees and lower.
> 
> Reading the paper on Sunday I read about a shipwreck in the gulf of Alaska.  A 52 foot boot sank in 20 foot seas.  From the time the boat sank till the rescue helicopter appeared to pluck three men from the water was 80 minutes.  All three were wearing "survival suits."  I'm assuming this is some form of dry suit?  They all had mild hypothermia and were released from the emergency room.
> 
> This is a long time to stay in the water that was undoubtedly below 40F, and probably closer to freezing than 40, and have only mild effects from the exposure.  Definitely a testament to the ability of a good dry suit.
> 

To my knowledge, those survival suits do not have latex gaskets at the
neck, wrists and ankles and their zippers are not at all the waterproof
kind.  So they will let water in.  They have lots of flotation built
into them.  A true dry suit would do a lot better, albeit the stated
survival times in the survival suits for that degree of water were
impressive.

ralph diaz
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: <dldecker_at_se.mediaone.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Wetsuit for cool water
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 15:57:56 -0500
At 02:54 PM 11/15/99 -0800, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote:
>Mel Grindol wrote:
>> 
>> On Fri, 12 Nov 1999 21:50:27   Ralph Diaz wrote:
>> >
>> >And remember the bottom line...this is all in the non-dry suit realm.
>> >In a _dry_ suit with a decent amount of fleece underneath and hand,
>> >neck, foot and head protection, you could hang out for an incredibly
>> >long time in water in 40 degrees and lower.
>> 
>> Reading the paper on Sunday I read about a shipwreck in the gulf of
Alaska.  A 52 foot boot sank in 20 foot seas.  From the time the boat sank
till the rescue helicopter appeared to pluck three men from the water was
80 minutes.  All three were wearing "survival suits."  I'm assuming this is
some form of dry suit?  They all had mild hypothermia and were released
from the emergency room.
>> 
>> This is a long time to stay in the water that was undoubtedly below 40F,
and probably closer to freezing than 40, and have only mild effects from
the exposure.  Definitely a testament to the ability of a good dry suit.
>> 
>
>To my knowledge, those survival suits do not have latex gaskets at the
>neck, wrists and ankles and their zippers are not at all the waterproof
>kind.  So they will let water in.  They have lots of flotation built
>into them.  A true dry suit would do a lot better, albeit the stated
>survival times in the survival suits for that degree of water were
>impressive.
>
>ralph diaz
>-- 


The survival suits I have worn in the past were coast guard issue and were
like ralph said. They have sewed in foam for floatation and warmth but no
seals at the feet,hands or head except a hood. On a boat they are great but
in the water I think a wet suit would be better.

Dana
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From: Jerry Hawkins <jhawkins_at_cisco.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Wetsuit for cool water
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 13:17:51 -0800
I just checked the Consumers Marine catalog and found several choices for survival suits.  They run $279 to 449.  I don't think I could paddle effectively in the heaviest ones.  The lightest is 8 pounds, the heaviest is 14 pounds.  Some offer neoprene closures but most rely on Velcro.  Mustang Anti-Exposure Coveralls ($318, 8 pounds) are somewhere between wetsuit and survival suit and might be paddleable.  They are a stylish safety orange with black trim, just right for Hallowe'en.  None of the suits offers information on the actual amount of insulation or flotation, or compares itself directly to a wetsuit or drysuit.  There are, no doubt, Coast Guard or Navy tests comparing these things.  

Well, it is sunny and 70 degrees here in San Jose.  Too much talk of cold things.

jerry.



At 02:54 PM 11/15/1999 -0800, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote:
>Mel Grindol wrote:
>> 
>> On Fri, 12 Nov 1999 21:50:27   Ralph Diaz wrote:
>> >
>> >And remember the bottom line...this is all in the non-dry suit realm.
>> >In a _dry_ suit with a decent amount of fleece underneath and hand,
>> >neck, foot and head protection, you could hang out for an incredibly
>> >long time in water in 40 degrees and lower.
>> 
>> Reading the paper on Sunday I read about a shipwreck in the gulf of Alaska.  A 52 foot boot sank in 20 foot seas.  From the time the boat sank till the rescue helicopter appeared to pluck three men from the water was 80 minutes.  All three were wearing "survival suits."  I'm assuming this is some form of dry suit?  They all had mild hypothermia and were released from the emergency room.
>> 
>> This is a long time to stay in the water that was undoubtedly below 40F, and probably closer to freezing than 40, and have only mild effects from the exposure.  Definitely a testament to the ability of a good dry suit.
>> 
>
>To my knowledge, those survival suits do not have latex gaskets at the
>neck, wrists and ankles and their zippers are not at all the waterproof
>kind.  So they will let water in.  They have lots of flotation built
>into them.  A true dry suit would do a lot better, albeit the stated
>survival times in the survival suits for that degree of water were
>impressive.
>
>ralph diaz
>-- 
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
>PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
>Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com
>"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
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From: Karen Hancock <magpi_at_transport.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Wetsuit for cool water
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 15:31:55 -0800
The survival suit I recall donning for some marine safety class I took in
Alaska looked like an orange Gumby suit... covered entire body except
face... here is a picture of it:
http://www.uaf.edu/seagrant/amsea/index.html
Scroll down this page for picture of 3 men putting on these suits:
http://www.npfvoa.org/safety.htm
And here is another picture of these suits:
http://www.uaf.edu/otc/pic2.html

Karen
http://www.uaf.edu/seagrant/Pubs_Videos/pubs/MAPV-38.html

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From: <JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Wetsuit for cool water
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:26:40 EST
Ralph wrote, "... To my knowledge, those survival suits do not have latex gaskets at the neck, wrists and ankles and their zippers are not at all the waterproof
kind.  So they will let water in.  They have lots of flotation built into them.  A true dry suit would do a lot better, albeit the stated survival times in the survival suits for that degree of water were impressive."

Probably too impressive for a wet suit, Ralph.  My experience with suits rated as SOLAS "survival suits" is that they are well sealed and "dry", with integral boots, a neck or face seal --- usually with an integrated hood --- and wrist seals with integrated mits or gloves which are "wet".  There are two types --- quick donning which are dry coveralls with no insulations other than what you're wearing when you put the suit on --- and true "survival" or "immersion" suits which contain a lot of insulation.  The quick donning suit is sometimes carried in aircraft for non-crew protection; the fullup survival suit is more a maritime industry product.

There are insulated coveralls available which provide some wetsuit-like protection, but not as much as a good neoprene suit; these coveralls look like flight suits and are regularly worn by Navy and Coast Guard boat crews.  That might be what you were thinking about.  Or maybe that's what that crew was wearing --- and they're just really tough Alaskans.  But I doubt it.

Jack Martin

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