David Seng wrote: snip > So how about the rest of you - right side up, or upside down?< Depends on the paddle. Most of the time right side up. But if I was paddling in New Zealand it would be upside down (but so would I). The sun would go the wrong way across the sky and if you drive on the right side of the road you meet a lot of traffic that tells you your on the wrong side. You can however, buy artificial banana flavored milk, cereal and candy marshmallows which makes up for a lot of the other things that are upside down at least if artificial banana is your favorite flavor in the whole world and you are starved for it living in backward North America. But I digress. I have used paddles that were easier to use upside down. They were spooned and had a tendency to spin in ones grip if not held tightly enough. By using them upside down the spin is always initiated to the outside and you know which way to correct for in advance. If the asymmetrical spooned blade is used the way it was designed to be used you don't know if the paddle will start its spin (as it slides to the side around the spoon) inward or outward and so is much harder to control because you must wait for the feedback to know which way to correct. The reason for asymmetrical blades is to keep the area equal on each side of the blade so no matter how shallow the blade is buried if power is applied to it then it won't want to twist in your hand from uneven pressure on each side. If you don't put on the power until the blade is totally buried and cut power before removing the blade from the water you will get no benefit from asymmetrical paddle blades used design side up. One paddler I know uses her paddle upside down because she says she likes the extra kick she feels it adds to the end of her stroke. She is really mostly lifting water and feeling the point not lift out of the water until last (and later than if she used it as designed where it is again putting a twist on the shaft) and she is working harder than she needs to to get the same speed. Some people like to feel they are working hard. This is sort of like someone telling me they like a long paddle because they can feel how well it is gripping the water by how hard it is to pull. They are confusing their perception of effort with the idea that the effort is going into some useful purpose which is not necessarily the case. David, is your paddle very spooned? If so you may be doing the best thing. Or maybe the next best thing, buying a paddle that doesn't want to keep spinning in your grip would be better. What make and model is it? What is it you like better about holding it upside down? Is this the case with other models you have tried as well? Which ones? Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> So how about the rest of you - right side up, or upside down? >> One of the advantages of using a Greenland paddle is that no one can tell if you are holding it upside down, even when you are. :-^ Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
David Seng wrote: snip > So how about the rest of you - right side up, or upside down? Ralph Diaz wrote: If you insist on lifting all that water in holding an asymmetric paddle blade upside down, why not go allthe way in inefficiency...I have an old pair of clunky Klepper paddles to give you. :-) I assume that is what you are talking about. Depending on the amount of asymmetricity, you do wind up carrying a lot of water on the blade as it comes out of the water, sorta like shoveling snow. DS responded - Maybe I do something weird when I paddle (I've never had any formal sea kayak training), but I try to minimize any paddle force in any direction other than opposite the direction that I want to move in - i.e. I try not to "lift" water or "push" water. As a competitive swimmer I was always very conscious of "paddle" effiency with my strokes and I try to carry that same attitude and "feel for the water" over into my paddling. I have always thought that my "blade angle" when exiting the water was nearly vertical and thus fairly efficient, but perhaps I'm wrong - I certainly haven't ever given much thought to the "upside down" part of the paddle on the exit, but more about how it functions during the initial part of the stroke. Sounds as though it would be worthy of more attention and study on my part. I'd be interested in hearing more on this issue from other folks on the list who really focus on paddling efficiency. I'm usually a pretty easy-going, laid-back paddler whose eyes tend to glaze over when folks start writing about the more technical issues of paddle strokes, but this issue has my interest. Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry wrote; >On a recent trip a guide pointed out to me that when paddling in reeds and weeds it is better have the paddle backwards (not upside down, but frontside back). > Never tried a conventional touring paddle backwards in the swamp. It's been my experience that the, narrow blade (Greenland style) is far superior in the swamp than a conventional touring paddle. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have always been intrigued by the justification of the asymmetrical paddle blade (asymmetrical about the shaft centerline not in section or over the blade length ). The reason it intrigues me has to do with the balance of forces. If the flow over the paddle is normal to the blade then one can easily see how, at different immersions, the asymmetrical blade might have balanced forces even when the blade isn't fully immersed. If the paddle has an angle of attack (i.e. moves at an angle through the water, the forces become unbalanced around the centerline of the shaft as the center of force shifts towards the "leading" edge. It would seem that flow normal to the blade would be the exception rather than the rule especially given the variability of human beings. I doubt if many of my strokes have normal flow. :-) No doubt all the disruption around the boat and due to waves further messes up the flow. Another consideration has to due with the forces near the surface for a partially immersed blade. The drag coefficient of the partially ventilated portion of the blade may not equal the drag of the fully immersed portion of the blade and this would vary with the force applied. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: > But if I was paddling in New Zealand it would be upside down (but so would I). > Now you know why I have never bothered learning to roll! If I can live, breath and paddle upside down, why worry? Who wants to be an upright citizen anyway? Allan Singleton Hamilton NZ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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