Please help me. I don't understand the apparently American prejudice toward flicking one's head up as one completes the C to C roll or finishes up from a low brace. The ACA seem to teach it. Roger Shuman writes articles extolling the virtues of the "head dink" maneuver. Derek Hutchinson is ranting and raving against it in the latest SK Magazine (letter to editor). I simply bring my head up last, keeping it well back. I can't see the need to use a head dink movement. I generally tell newbies to avoid a lot of unsafe head flopping, but now I see it actually being promoted and entrenched. Given geometric expansion of numbers, it won't be long before everyone in North America is head dinking. Any comments or experience out there with this issue. Any one into kinesiology. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd (who is being serious here and is not a dink-head) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi everybody, I appreciate the concerns about the head dink and I'd like to take the time, this fine Thanksgiving morning, to speak to those concerns. If you take a close look at the Sea Kayaker magazine article, "Bracing 101," you will first notice that the magazine mislabeled the captions on the pictures for the high and low braces. If you get out the magnifying glass you will see that the "head dink" is actually putting the head onto the shoulder that is on the recovering side, basically "bringing the head up last." The latter phrase is more commonly used when referring to an Eskimo roll. While teaching bracing, the former phrase--head dink--is more commonly used among instructors in our area, Central California. Call it what you want, both phrases and techniques describe the same thing and require a little "head flopping" to be effective and achieve the counter balance effect of getting the kayak back under the person's head and into the paddling position. I did see Mr.. Hutchinson's "ranting and raving" in the latest Sea Kayaker and I heard that he was "taking some shots" during his presentation in Pt Townsend. Personally I get a big kick out of Mr.. Hutchinson, for his opinions and the marvelous humor he uses to deliver them. There are many people in the greater sea kayaking community that I think of fondly and with great respect even if I don't agree with all of their opinions. I think it is wonderful that someone who has been around and in the limelight for so long has taken notice of Roger Schumann, who I think of very fondly, indeed, even though our opinions often differ. Please let me take one more moment to thank Mr. Lloyd for sharing his experiences in the surf. We get to teach surf zone classes about 12 times per summer and every one of them is offering slightly different challenges for the instructors. It is one of the most dynamic and intense classes that we offer, even more so than the Open Coast or Rock Garden classes, because of the length of time that everyone gets to spend right in the surf zone. Thank you for taking the time to write up your experience. Happy Thanksgiving everybody! From Jan over at Roger Schumann & Jan Shriner ESKAPE Sea Kayaking Reputation for Excellence--ACA Certified (831) 427-2297. Web Page: http://www.eskapekayak.com authors of Guide to Sea Kayaking Central and Northern California *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jan Shriner & Roger Schumann wrote: > If you get out the magnifying glass > you will see that the "head dink" is actually putting the head onto the > shoulder that is on the recovering side, basically "bringing the head up > last." Perhaps part of the confusion is the interpretation of head dink (by myself and, it seems, Doug and others) as the flicking of the head at the _end_ of the roll, rather than the drop of the head to the shoulder at the beginning. Other descriptions of the head dink I've read seemed to imply this. Dropping your head at the beginning is important, as is removing your head from the water last. However, finishing the roll with a rapid head flick, as many paddlers do, is asking for trouble. Your head represents a fair bit of momentum and swinging it rapidly up at the end of the roll will force the rest of you back down into the water. You should finish with a relatively slow, smooth motion to bring your head erect. I have a bad habit of head flicking (only on a c-c, since my sweep-roll ends in a low lay-back) as a result of having long hair back in the hippie days. Whenever I surfaced while swimming back then, I'd do a head flick to get my saturated bangs out of my eyes. Old habits are hard to break. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jan Shriner & Roger Schumann wrote: > If you get out the magnifying glass > you will see that the "head dink" is actually putting the head onto the > shoulder that is on the recovering side, basically "bringing the head up > last." Perhaps part of the confusion is the interpretation of head dink (by myself and, it seems, Doug and others) as the flicking of the head at the _end_ of the roll, rather than the drop of the head to the shoulder at the beginning. Other descriptions of the head dink I've read seemed to imply this. Dropping your head at the beginning is important, as is removing your head from the water last. However, finishing the roll with a rapid head flick, as many paddlers do, is asking for trouble. Your head represents a fair bit of momentum and swinging it rapidly up at the end of the roll will force the rest of you back down into the water. You should finish with a relatively slow, smooth motion to bring your head erect. I have a bad habit of head flicking (only on a c-c, since my sweep-roll ends in a low lay-back) as a result of having long hair back in the hippie days. Whenever I surfaced while swimming back then, I'd do a head flick to get my saturated bangs out of my eyes. Old habits are hard to break. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 07:50 PM 11/25/99 -0500, Mr Michael wrote: <snip> >Perhaps part of the confusion is the interpretation of head dink (by myself >and, it seems, Doug and others) as the flicking of the head at the _end_ of >the roll, rather than the drop of the head to the shoulder at the beginning. >Other descriptions of the head dink I've read seemed to imply this. <snip> My original post on the subject of safety concerns over the "head dink" was intended as a serious one. Thank you Michael for responding. I don't think I'm confused, well, not completely. I have heard a number of representations from American quarters promoting the flicking of the head at the end of the roll and on brace recovery, specifically calling this the head dink. Perhaps some other paddleres, perhaps even ACA instructors would care to comment. Andree Hurley, where are you? I promise not to flame or inflame. Just want to share information and gain a perspective and possibly an explanation to why the head dink is taught thusly, or if indeed it really is referring to the flick. And where did the name come from? If the real maneuver is simply leaving one's head in the water till the end, is not the "head dunk" better? Inquiring minds want to know. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Oh my Go_, I can't believe you mentioned me by name. I've been out of town...and saw this thread and was going to try to avoid it as it is so hard to explain, but, sigh, I'll try. So....when I learned to teach bracing and rolling in the eighties, we started people with the head down. There is indeed a kinesthetic "thing" having to do with the long and short muscles along the sides of our bodies - they work together in a mysterious way (to me) when doing a C to C motion. Now, I used to teach a lean out, reach-arm-out sort of brace with the whole body tilting along with the boat. When I took my first ACA course in 1989 (for whitewater, in Jackson) I first heard the trerm head dink and actually thought it came from the southeast. Down around Nantahala and in DC you have a lot of people training for slalom...and I think they evolved this thing. Technique changed from what the ACA now calls the bell-buoy lean to the J-Lean or even just "boat tilt". Some instructors don't like to say lean at all. The idea is that, say, you are doing hip snap practice with your hands on your head and just lifting first the left knee, then the right, having fun, making waves - and stop with one knee up, and hold. Boat tilt - one knee up, one relaxed, and - head counter-balancing. The head is upright or even over-compensating. Then, the full hip snap - drive opposite knee up, drop head down (or the other way around) - the head dropping actually seems to cause the knee to come up - bringing the boat flat on it's hull, or under the body, giving you something to sit on. The head can get thrown to that side, or just dropped gracefully, but without the head, as in the roll (really an upside-down extension of bracing/sweeping) it just doesn't work as well, or sometimes, at all. There are all kinds of visualizations for this - ear-bone-to-the-knee-bone, a vise, hold the hundred dollar bill on your shoulder, etc. Secondly, "elbows in, elbows low" for a high brace....no reaching. Once your arm starts to sneak out sideways you have potential for a shoulder dislocation. That's the theory - a start anyway. Maybe I'll put some images up. I've bought into it all the way! Andree Hurley http://www.viewit.com/KIX/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Doug Lloyd wrote: > Please help me. I don't understand the apparently American prejudice toward > flicking one's head up as one completes the C to C roll or finishes up from > a low brace. The ACA seem to teach it. Roger Shuman writes articles > extolling the virtues of the "head dink" maneuver. Derek Hutchinson is > ranting and raving against it in the latest SK Magazine (letter to editor). > > I simply bring my head up last, keeping it well back. I can't see the need > to use a head dink movement. I generally tell newbies to avoid a lot of > unsafe head flopping, but now I see it actually being promoted and > entrenched. Given geometric expansion of numbers, it won't be long before > everyone in North America is head dinking. > Boy, now I'm confused. I've been taught the head dink by a number of instructors, both SK and WW, and no one has ever described it as "flicking one's head up." When you brace, what do you do with your head? Leave it sticking straight up? Or drop it toward the knee that's righting the boat? The latter is the head dink. I can't imagine where you or Derek got the idea that somebody thnks you should flick your head _up_ at the end of a C-to-C roll or low brace. The _Grace Under Pressure_ rolling video doesn't show that. I've just looked at several texts I have handy, and can't find and reference to dinking up. Tom Foster and Kel Kelly (Catch Every Eddy, Surf Every Wave) say "aggressively fling your head toward the working blade." Slim Ray (The Canoe Handbook) says "The paddler's head ... controls much of the motion of the rest of the body...Generally speaking, when the head goes one way, the body goes the other. So when the head goes down [ie, dinks (SC)], the body --and therefore the boat-- comes up." In the Schumann and Shriner Sea Kayaker article, this appears on pages 28 and 29: "Don't undersrtimate the power of the head dink. Anyone who has done an Eskimo roll training is probably familiar with being told to _drop_ her head down toward the water. This is also a key element in good bracing. [emphasis added]" The pictures at the top of those pages show the paddler's head tilted _down_ at the conclusion of the brace. Finally, look at the picture on the top left of page 51 of Hutchinson's Fourth Edition. The paddler is doing a high brace with his head dinked toward the water on the right. So, where have you found all these exponents of "dinking up"? I can't find any. Steve Cramer *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>At 07:50 PM 11/25/99 -0500, Mr Michael wrote: ><snip> >>Perhaps part of the confusion is the interpretation of head dink (by myself >>and, it seems, Doug and others) as the flicking of the head at the _end_ of >>the roll, rather than the drop of the head to the shoulder at the beginning. >>Other descriptions of the head dink I've read seemed to imply this. ><snip> >Doug wrote; Perhaps some other paddleres, perhaps even ACA instructors would >care to comment. Andree Hurley, where are you? I promise not to flame or >inflame. Just want to share information and gain a perspective and possibly >an explanation to why the head dink is taught thusly, or if indeed it >really is referring to the flick. And where did the name come from? If the >real maneuver is simply leaving one's head in the water till the end, is >not the "head dunk" better? Inquiring minds want to know. I'll try dis one, During my ACA certification the movement of the head during C to C rolls or bracing was called a head dink. The instructor did not advocate a flicking of the head. The way it was taught was to keep the head on your shoulder till you were up and paddling. He may have over stressed the part stating that one should be paddling before one lifts there head but that was to express the importance of keeping the head on the shoulder till you were upright. There was no mention of a actual head "flick". I rate my neck very highly as a important body part I ain't gonna do no "flicking". Sorry if I missed anything on previous post on this subject been doing a lot of deleting lately. Doug you ask where did the name come from? I ain't gotta clue, maybe the knowledgeable Professor can give dat answer ;-) I'm signing off for a couple of days. Got some stiff north wind dat wants to lift my kite and bring my vessel out to Horn Island off the Mississippi coast. Their calling for a small advisory, gotta go! I'll leave da fire extinguisher next to da computer in case I'm flamed when I get back from the Horn :-) Arthur *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > > Please help me. I don't understand the apparently American prejudice > toward flicking one's head up as one completes the C to C roll or > finishes up from a low brace. The ACA seem to teach it. Roger Shuman > writes articles extolling the virtues of the "head dink" maneuver. > Derek Hutchinson is ranting and raving against it in the latest SK > Magazine (letter to editor). > > I simply bring my head up last, keeping it well back. I can't see > the need to use a head dink movement. I generally tell newbies to > avoid a lot of unsafe head flopping, but now I see it actually being > promoted and entrenched. Given geometric expansion of numbers, it > won't be long before everyone in North America is head dinking. Well, FWIW, I have had classes with several different ACA certified instructors who taught us to simply bring the head up last as well. In order to help accomplish this we were told to drop our head to our shoulder (or put more simply, to look down at the water/paddle) in order to make it easier to pull the boat back under the body. This is what was described to me as a "head dink." There was no flicking of one's head UP involved. I think those of us who have tried to flick the head UP when completing a roll can attest that this is a good way to end up back upside down. :-) There may be some "Americans" out there teaching something else (flicking up?) and calling it a head dink but this hasn't been true for any of the American instructors I've had at the Nantahala Outdoor Center, H2Outfitters, or Roger Schumann's Eskape Sea Kayaking (all of whom I believe are active in ACA instructor certification and had excellent instructors). So in my experience, anyway, there is no unsafe head flopping being taught by the ACA. I also have not noticed anything close to what you are describing as a head dink being mentioned in any of the books or videos recommended by the ACA instructors I've had. In fact, the teaching videos and demos I've seen used in ACA classes show the head and torso down in the water until the boat is pulled under one's body and almost completely upright. The finish position still has the head down, demonstrating that it comes up last, and then the head finally is raised slowly upright (with no flicking involved). I think we can all rest easier now, knowing that the United States is not running rampant with any violent flicking of one's head. Well not yet, anyway. JUST KIDDING! :-) Frank (Really, I'm not on the ACA payroll - I guess you just struck a patriotic nerve :-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 06:48 PM 11/25/99 -0800, Frank wrote: <big snip> >I think we can all rest easier now, knowing that the United States is >not running rampant with any violent flicking of one's head. Well not >yet, anyway. >JUST KIDDING! :-) > >Frank >(Really, I'm not on the ACA payroll - I guess you just struck a >patriotic nerve :-) Thank you Frank for being frank. I always post a bit provocatively -- kind of like baiting with a big juicy worm. People will ignor me soon! (Get bigger worms?) Your snipped explanation of ACA teaching norms seems to coincide with what Michael Daly, Steve Cramer, and Athur Hebert indicated. Thank you guys for your time and explanation -- I do appreciate it very, very much. I actually don't have direct evidence of incorrect head dinking. I originally said: "I have heard a number of representations from American quarters promoting the flicking of the head at the end of the roll and on brace recovery, specifically calling this the head dink". This was based on hear-say. I will be speaking to my sources! When I contacted another friend of mine (who is helping implement the new CRCA standards on the west coast of Canada), he didn't think the ACA would actually be promoting head flicking officially. He indicated Derek Hutchinson may be getting a little old and cranky in his old age -- now I'm gonna get tarred with the same brush. Hopefully someone will respond to Derek's letter to SK Magazine, or should we just "let the heathen rage?" BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd (Mr Busy-Body) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Andree, Thank you for responding. I was very perplexed at the time and I mentioned your name only because I had heard you might shed some balanced light on the subject from the ACA side of things, but more importantly, form the perspective of someone who doesn't teach stuff that doesn't work. I also figured you would be able to help explain the head dink verbally (which is all we have on paddlewise). I better understand concepts when they are explained to me verbally, if broken down into pertinent details, point by point. Thank you for not disappointing me. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd At 08:30 PM 11/28/99 -0500, you wrote: >Oh my Go_, I can't believe you mentioned me by name. I've been out of >town...and saw this thread and was going to try to avoid it as it is so >hard to explain, but, sigh, I'll try. > >So....when I learned to teach bracing and rolling in the eighties, we >started people with the head down. There is indeed a kinesthetic "thing" >having to do with the long and short muscles along the sides of our bodies >- they work together in a mysterious way (to me) when doing a C to C >motion. > >Now, I used to teach a lean out, reach-arm-out sort of brace with the >whole body tilting along with the boat. > >When I took my first ACA course in 1989 (for whitewater, in Jackson) I >first heard the trerm head dink and actually thought it came from the >southeast. Down around Nantahala and in DC you have a lot of people >training for slalom...and I think they evolved this thing. > >Technique changed from what the ACA now calls the bell-buoy lean to the >J-Lean or even just "boat tilt". Some instructors don't like to say lean >at all. > >The idea is that, say, you are doing hip snap practice with your hands >on your head and just lifting first the left knee, then the right, having >fun, making waves - and stop with one knee up, and hold. > >Boat tilt - one knee up, one relaxed, and - head counter-balancing. >The head is upright or even over-compensating. > >Then, the full hip snap - drive opposite knee up, drop head down (or the >other way around) - the head dropping actually seems to cause the knee to >come up - bringing the boat flat on it's hull, or under the body, giving >you something to sit on. The head can get thrown to that side, or just >dropped gracefully, but without the head, as in the roll (really an >upside-down extension of bracing/sweeping) it just doesn't work as well, >or sometimes, at all. > >There are all kinds of visualizations for this - >ear-bone-to-the-knee-bone, a vise, hold the hundred dollar bill on your >shoulder, etc. > >Secondly, "elbows in, elbows low" for a high brace....no reaching. Once >your arm starts to sneak out sideways you have potential for a shoulder >dislocation. > >That's the theory - a start anyway. Maybe I'll put some images up. > >I've bought into it all the way! > > Andree Hurley > http://www.viewit.com/KIX/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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