Dear Folks, At the risk of making an already convoluted thread even more so, I noticed that lots of people stated opinions about Tupperware, shatterglass, and kevlar, but no one specifically commented on any of those glass/plywood/glass kit boats out there. Since I am anxiously in the market for one of them (most likely a Pygmy Osprey HP) I'd appreciate hearing more about that. Yours in paddling Bill Oetjen woetjen_at_zoo.uvm.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
William J. Oetjen wrote: > At the risk of making an already convoluted thread even more so, > I noticed that lots of people stated opinions about Tupperware, > shatterglass, and kevlar, but no one specifically commented on any of > those glass/plywood/glass kit boats out there. Since I am anxiously in > the market for one of them (most likely a Pygmy Osprey HP) I'd appreciate > hearing more about that. I made one (Pygmy Osprey Std) and love it for day trips. (It is a little small for multi-day trips for me -- but would be OK for somebody 50 lbs lighter.) Definitely lighter and maybe stiffer (I think) than trad. FG layup. Way cheaper than FG or plastic, IF you do not consider your labor an "expense." But, you gotta love the assembly process. Drawbacks: the hydrodynamics can not quite approach those of hulls popped out of molds, even though mine is a "multi-chine" design. Winters and Broze (among others) might be able to quantitate the difference, if enticed. Strip-built boats avoid the chine problem, but at the addition of considerably more work than stitch-and-glue plywood kits. Guillemot Kayaks (http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/) has a great Web site, complete with a builder's Web board for trading hints and insults <g>. Others will chime in on chines and their value as a turning edge -- Whilden, where are you? BTW, the Osprey HP is pretty much a straight-ahead hull. Have you considered the Arctic Tern or the Coho (both Pygmy Designs, if that is your preference)? -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Read below for a few specific comments on the efficiency of multi-hull chines and eskimo kayaks. Also a few comments on the benifits of chines and on the Osprey HP. I've been reading paddlewise only very infrequently lately, since most of my time has been taken working on a website that I am starting up. If anyone wants a preview of it, go to http://www.yourplanetearth.com Cheers, Kevin ------------------------------- | Kevin Whilden | | kwhilden_at_seanet.com | | Kayak Academy Instructor | | http://www.halcyon.com/kayak | ------------------------------- On Tue, 7 Dec 1999, Dave Kruger wrote: > William J. Oetjen wrote: > > > At the risk of making an already convoluted thread even more so, > > I noticed that lots of people stated opinions about Tupperware, > > shatterglass, and kevlar, but no one specifically commented on any of > > those glass/plywood/glass kit boats out there. Since I am anxiously in > > the market for one of them (most likely a Pygmy Osprey HP) I'd appreciate > > hearing more about that. > > I made one (Pygmy Osprey Std) and love it for day trips. (It is a little small > for multi-day trips for me -- but would be OK for somebody 50 lbs lighter.) > Definitely lighter and maybe stiffer (I think) than trad. FG layup. Way cheaper > than FG or plastic, IF you do not consider your labor an "expense." But, you > gotta love the assembly process. > > Drawbacks: the hydrodynamics can not quite approach those of hulls popped out > of molds, even though mine is a "multi-chine" design. Winters and Broze (among > others) might be able to quantitate the difference, if enticed. > If this is true, then why did the Aleut Eskimos build boats with multi-chine hulls? I would suggest they may have thought multi-chine hulls were better than rounded hulls, and I don't believe for a second that they didn't have the technology to build a smoothly rounded hull. I am of the opinion that they arrived on their classic baidairka design after centuries of rigorous testing that would rival anything that we do today. Note that I am not saying necessarily that multi-chine hulls are more efficient than rounded hulls, but I am saying that they might be better in an overall sense. > Strip-built boats avoid the chine problem, but at the addition of considerably > more work than stitch-and-glue plywood kits. Guillemot Kayaks > (http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/) has a great Web site, complete with a > builder's Web board for trading hints and insults <g>. > > Others will chime in on chines and their value as a turning edge -- Whilden, > where are you? > I am not convinced that the presence of chines is all that important for turning. Rather it is the hull shape that matters (although I have few ideas as to how it matters). I have paddled plenty of rounded hull boats that carve turns admirably, and several hard chines boats that turn listlessly. I do believe that all else being equal, chines may enhance turning in a secondary way. However, I am quite convinced that hard chines have tremendous value when surfing wind waves, ocean surf, or tidal rapids. They are also quite valuable when paddling in quartering seas. > BTW, the Osprey HP is pretty much a straight-ahead hull. Have you considered > the Arctic Tern or the Coho (both Pygmy Designs, if that is your preference)? > Dave is right on here. Unless you are planning to compete or paddle really fast, then you shouldn't buy the HP. At normal cruising speeds, the efficiency advantage of the HP is practically nonexistant, and turning disadvantage is quite significant. > -- > Dave Kruger > Astoria, OR > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kevin wrote; (SNIP) > > If this is true, then why did the Aleut Eskimos build boats with > multi-chine hulls? I would suggest they may have thought multi-chine hulls > were better than rounded hulls, and I don't believe for a second that they > didn't have the technology to build a smoothly rounded hull. I am of the > opinion that they arrived on their classic baidairka design after > centuries of rigorous testing that would rival anything that we do today. > Note that I am not saying necessarily that multi-chine hulls are more > efficient than rounded hulls, but I am saying that they might be better > in an overall sense. Any ideas on how they would build a smooth round bilge hull? I alos have in interest in the test protocol. I have always wondered how they knew when they had achieved the best trade-off between wavemaking and friction resistance. > > Strip-built boats avoid the chine problem, but at the addition of considerably > > more work than stitch-and-glue plywood kits. Guillemot Kayaks > > (http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/) has a great Web site, complete with a > > builder's Web board for trading hints and insults <g>. > > > > Others will chime in on chines and their value as a turning edge -- Whilden, > > where are you? > > > > I am not convinced that the presence of chines is all that important for > turning. Rather it is the hull shape that matters (although I have few > ideas as to how it matters). I have paddled plenty of rounded hull boats > that carve turns admirably, and several hard chines boats that turn > listlessly. I do believe that all else being equal, chines may enhance > turning in a secondary way. Aren't the chines a part of the "hull shape"? Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bill O wrote: > Dear Folks, > > At the risk of making an already convoluted thread even more so, > I noticed that lots of people stated opinions about Tupperware, > shatterglass, and kevlar, but no one specifically commented on any of > those glass/plywood/glass kit boats out there. Since I am anxiously in > the market for one of them (most likely a Pygmy Osprey HP) I'd appreciate > hearing more about that. Shuush! Wanna give away our secret? Speaking for myself here of course...While I would NEVER try to play with my wood kayak in a turbulent rock garden, having built my wood strip boat myself, I feel confident I could repair most anything that goes wrong (with the boat anyway). Story time: When I was constructing my Guillemot, my son and I spent the better part of a day in the back yard fairing and sanding the hull to prep it for fiberglassing. As we brought the hull back inside, we turned it over so we could start laying the strips for the deck. The hull slipped off the form and split end-to-end. We both stood there with a stupid look on our face and an empty form in our hands. Mind you, this is before the fiberglass was applied, so the hull was expectably weak. Finally my son spoke and asked if it was his fault the kayak just broke in half. I assured him it wasn't and we carried it back out to the back yard and glued the two pieces back together. It was traumatic at the time, but if we could fix that, we could fix anything. There have been several "patches" done this year to the fiberglass (to cover flaws in my construction, not because of a collision), and you wouldn't be able to tell me where they are. I know only because I was the one that put them there. While I try to avoid regularly "running it up the beach", that hasn't prevented me from doing so from time to time. A little extra glass in the right areas give you the confidence that even if you scratch it up, a skim coat of epoxy or another coat of varnish will have it looking new again. An elderly gentalman I paddle with *always* runs his stitch and glue boat ashore after a paddle. Especially when he is ready to repaint the hull! Woody *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Re: Kit kayaks.... I've built two Pygmy Coho's. I've generally been happy with the construction of the kayak. I think their directions fall a little short regarding seats and hatches, which are almost treated as an afterthought. My general attitude, I built it, I can repair it. There seem to be several friend of friend stories that the the wood composites are pretty tough (surviving falling off racks at highway speeds, etc.). It is pretty amazing how a bunch of long thing strips of plywood can come together into something that tough. Strength depends in part on how well you build the wood composite. Scratches you can sand out or fill with epoxy or varnish. In fact Pygmy assumes the bottom strip of fiberglass along the keel may need to be replaced from time to time as it gets scratched up by landings. It is possible to split a seam, I know, I did it when trying to install a bulkhead that was a bit too big for the interior dimension, but repair was applying more tape, fiberglass and sanding. I was also putting a lot of force on the seam, essentially forcing a wedge inside the hull. Strength seems to be as good as the fiberglass, and in theory, less brittle with the wood core than a pure fiberglass. You can make it tank like, both in weight and strength by multiple layers of epoxy and glass inside and out, or you can make it more lightweight, and a bit more fragile by reducing the weight of glass cloth, and where or how many layers you add. They are rigid, like fiberglass kayak. dave -- Dave Uebele (daveu_at_sptddog.com) Spotted Dog Systems http://sptddog.com/daveu.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
FYI there is a show on PBS, Sunday mornings at 11:30, concerning boat building. The last couple of episodes have been building a stitch and glue wooded kayak. I think it is a Tern. It you can find the show it is well worth watching. The show does not spend 30 minutes on just the kayak but does talk about other issues. But what he does shows I think would help someone building or thinking about building a kayak. Course if you are not in the US then the show is not likely to help much! 8-) I'm sure people with more knowledge will add more to the topic but the boat on the show has a thin plywood that is being stiched with wire ties and then epoxied togather. Then the boat is fiberglassed at least on the exterior. I now understand what a stich and glue boat consists of. The phrase always puzzled me before... Hope this helps... Dan McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The perfect boat for recreational racing and surfing. Futura II fiberglass surfski. 19'x20" <40lbs Equipped with rudder and small day hatch. Bright yellow with black trim. Bracsa' carbon wing paddle included. The boat is in excellent condition and is located in Seattle. I am asking $1200 for the package. Thanks, Daniel -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "When all is said and done, more is said than done." Daniel Key dtheman_at_u.washington.edu (206) 527-2915 http://students.washington.edu/dtheman -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 04:31 PM 12/7/99 -0500, William J. Oetjen wrote: >Dear Folks, > >At the risk of making an already convoluted thread even more so, >I noticed that lots of people stated opinions about Tupperware, >shatterglass, and kevlar, I noticed that too. However, what I found complete unnecessary was the use of the disparaging terms to describe the plastic and fiberglass layups. The pros and cons of each can be discussed without using loaded terminology and the general consensus that I have seen after reading numerous debates on the topic is that there is no perfect boat for every paddler for every type of paddling. > but no one specifically commented on any of >those glass/plywood/glass kit boats out there. Since I am anxiously in >the market for one of them (most likely a Pygmy Osprey HP) I'd appreciate >hearing more about that. Since I just received the kit for a CLC Northbay XL I've recognized the benefits of a wood boat. >From my experience the only negative that I have found that seems to be common among all layups is that their owners tend to get a little over zealous in their advocacy of what they happen to own. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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