Kev wrote: If this is true, then why did the Aleut Eskimos build boats with multi-chine hulls? I would suggest they may have thought multi-chine hulls were better than rounded hulls, and I don't believe for a second that they didn't have the technology to build a smoothly rounded hull. I am of the opinion that they arrived on their classic baidairka design after centuries of rigorous testing that would rival anything that we do today. Note that I am not saying necessarily that multi-chine hulls are more efficient than rounded hulls, but I am saying that they might be better in an overall sense. <unsnip> I'm not sure how valuable centuries of rigorous testing are when results are passed from generation to generation verbally, and accurate means of measurement are lacking. Seems to me the tendency would be not to fiddle for minor changes in performance if you had something that worked well. They had to paddle to eat, unlike the boatwrights on this list who are fabulously wealthy and can afford to tinker. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Kev wrote: > > > If this is true, then why did the Aleut Eskimos build boats > with > multi-chine hulls? I would suggest they may have thought > multi-chine hulls > were better than rounded hulls, and I don't believe for a > second that they > didn't have the technology to build a smoothly rounded hull. > I am of the > opinion that they arrived on their classic baidairka design > after > centuries of rigorous testing that would rival anything that > we do today. > Note that I am not saying necessarily that multi-chine hulls > are more > efficient than rounded hulls, but I am saying that they > might be better > in an overall sense. <unsnip> A few years ago, I built a baidarka in a class at Superior kayaks, and it took months for my fingertips to heal from lashing on the eight chines that give the hull its shape. In fact, all those chines give the hull exactly the round shape Mike is talking about. And because the skin depresses somewhat around the keelson, the boat effectively has a shallow keel, which makes for good tracking. I suspect the Aleuts did NOT make "rounded" hulls -- by which I think Kev means "smooth" hulls -- because that would have required either dugouts or slats over frames under skin. Skin-over-frame construction offered a terrific blend of strength, design verstatility, and light weight. And it could be accomplished with the materials at hand -- driftwood and skin. That's the culture-ecology argument: adaption constrained by environmental factors. If you want a (purely specultative) notional explanation, consider that 1) all humans think analogically, and 2) the analog for the kayak may have been derived from the very animals hunted in it. A seal hunter may have "worn" the body of a seal, reploicating its skeleton and skin. After all, much prehistoric technology is known to have begun as art and only later been adapted to utilitarian purpose. Can't prove what went on in the mind of an ancient Aleut hunter, but mind games can be fascinating. Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> After all, much prehistoric technology is known to have begun as art and only later been adapted to utilitarian purpose. Can't prove what went on in the mind of an ancient Aleut hunter, but mind games can be fascinating. Rick >> Mmm... what are your sources on this? Seems to me it's been mostly the other way around. Take, for example, the invention of writing. Sumerian ideographs appear to have originated from tokens used for inventory and accounting purposes; only later was writing used to record myths, legends, history and poetry. In fact, the overwhelming majority of documents unearthed in the Middle East are economic documents -- contracts and such. Chuck Holst ************************************************************************ *** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ************************************************************************ *** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chuck, For one interesting source, read the chapter entitled "Art, Technology, and Science: Notes on Their Historical Interaction" in Duane H.D. Roller (ed.). Perspectives in the History of Science and Technology, Norman: Univ. of Oklahoma Press, 1971:129-176. This reference discusses the peculiarly western (Greek) dichotomy between matter and materials and contends that artists have always been closer to the material aspects -- that is, things known through their properties. This intellectual dichotomy is the basis for our current distinction between the scientist and the practitioner, between the engineer and the carpenter. Prior to the Greeks, the distinction did not exist. A couple quotes: ". . .artists have had far more intimate and continuing association with technology than they have had with science. . . .The antecedents of today's flourishing solid-state physics lie in the decorative arts." I have not had time to look up the reference I wanted to send, but it described the origins of metalurgy -- copper and bronze -- as occurring in the use of metal oxides for glazing pottery. As I recall the article, it showed that the properties of these metals were eventually learned from ceramics and applied to knives and swords. Although art is thought of today as the symbolic expression of spiritual and intellectual concepts, its origins are often in technology. Ceramics is an example. Today a pot is often considered an expression of "art," but pottery was once technology -- a very utilitarian device. When I wrote that much technology began as art, I was thinking of the development of swords from pottery glazes and was considering pottery as art. If you consider it as technology, I may have gotten the categories backward. Either way, it is probable that the kayak rose not from an intellectually created design (science) but out of the builder's knowledge of the materials (art) available for its construction. Since symbolism is often expressed in art, it, rather than scientific logic, may have been the intellectual stimulus for the design. Rick > After all, much prehistoric > technology is known to have begun as art and only later been adapted to > utilitarian purpose. Can't prove what went on in the mind of an ancient > Aleut hunter, but mind games can be fascinating. > Rick > >> > > Mmm... what are your sources on this? Seems to me it's been mostly the > other way around. Take, for example, the invention of writing. Sumerian > ideographs appear to have originated from tokens used for inventory and > accounting purposes; only later was writing used to record myths, > legends, history and poetry. In fact, the overwhelming majority of > documents unearthed in the Middle East are economic documents -- > contracts and such. > > Chuck Holst > > > > > > > > > > ************************************************************************ > *** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and > not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > ************************************************************************ > *** > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/13/99 9:29:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, rkemmer_at_home.com writes: << Either way, it is probable that the kayak rose not from an intellectually created design (science) but out of the builder's knowledge of the materials (art) available for its construction. >> Who has a better chance of success, one Aleut with 900 hours or 900 paddlewisers with one hour together? We wouldn't get past the tow rope. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > << Either way, it is probable that the kayak rose not from an > intellectually created design (science) but out of the builder's knowledge > of the materials (art) available for its construction. >> Long ago when the caribou flowed across the tundra in great antlered waves and the steam of their breathing raised clouds above the barrens that hunters could see for miles, before the missionaries taught us to sin, before the silent diseases of the white man broke our hearts with the frozen bodies of our children, the elders sat in smoky igloos eating fermented caribou paunch and argued for hours the merits impressionist soapstone carving and the symbolism of bifid bows. Long into the deep and oppressive night they raged stopping only to relieve themselves in the snow where, a few nights later the constant and conquering wind would leave small yellow pillars that children would kick through the village as they laughed and pushed each other into the snow or speared imaginary seals with child sized weapons for little hunters. And the elders argued for they could no longer remember how the kayak came about or if it was art or science but knowing only that it was gift from the Gods. Older than the other children I would sit for hours at the feet of the elders as they droned out the tales of how Sedna taught them to make the kayak and hunt the seals. How she led them to the willows and the driftwood and taught them the secret wood and bone joints. With deft hands she skinned the seals and showed the elders from long ago how to sew them together and make the skins watertight. And she taught them to shape the ends like a fish that would guide them on their journeys and to put eyes in the bow to see through the fog. She showed them how to shape the back like the tail of a bird that would carry them before the wind home safely to their families. And Sedna told them, "Forget not what I have taught you or you will die. Your children and wives will starve. Some day men will come in great winged kayaks. They will have big words and will flatter you with many questions and will go away and tell their families lies about you. Soon they will claim to know more about you than you know yourself and they will teach you how to paddle and hunt and carve soapstone like you were little children and knew nothing. They will call it art. They will pretend you are great artists and will feed you sweet tasting food and give you drink that makes you crazy and soon you will want to be like them. And your teeth will fall out so you cannot eat muktuk and you will forget how to hunt seal and caribou and to build kayaks." And Sedna told them, " Do not be deceived. You are the people. You live and you die. Your art is in living not in your kayaks or trinkets. Everything you do has a reason and a purpose. When you sit in your igloos and argue about art you will know you will no longer be the people. You will become as white men." And the elders sat in the igloo eating fermented caribou paunch and arguing if Sedna's words were true while the wind scoured their souls. My tongue found a hole where a tooth used to be and I remembered how we no longer hunted seals and saw only a few caribou this year. I thought about how we bought our food at the store. Then I knew that only the white man has time to argue about art and we had become as white men. And I saw a great bird of death soar across the sky. John Winters Redwing Designs Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters Wrote: > Long ago when the caribou flowed across the tundra in great antlered waves > and the steam of their breathing raised clouds above the barrens that > hunters could see for miles, before the missionaries taught us to sin, > before the silent diseases of the white man broke our hearts with the frozen > bodies of our children, the elders sat in smoky igloos eating fermented > caribou paunch and argued for hours the merits impressionist soapstone > carving and the symbolism of bifid bows. Etc. What a great post! John, where did you come across it? If you created it, it's magnificent. Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: "Richard Kemmer" <rkemmer_at_home.com> > John Winters Wrote: > > Long ago when the caribou flowed across the tundra in great antlered waves <snip> > What a great post! John, where did you come across it? If you created it, > it's magnificent. > > Rick I strongly suspect that was John's. In a word.... wow Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Aye, I'll second that. There is an enchanting little book entitled Eskimo Island by Phillip and Ellen Viereck (1962) that deals with King Island and King Islanders, and Bearing Sea hunters, written by the two teachers who ferried over to the island with the migration of King Islanders from Gnome to hunker down for the winter --ice bound and happy to be home once again. The book deals with a couple of kids who free (momentarily) from scholastic burdens, beachcomb and find a drift-find of a rowing boat half buried in the sand....and then their adventures begin. Kids, a boat, a bailer, a paddle, and entirely too much free time. Sounds a bit like my own childhood. In this lovely little book the kids reject Gnome life with it's temptations of the cinema and soda pop and the occasional drunken countrymen sleeping/freezing on the street, and instead opt for learning their grandfather's ways of hunting, fishing for salmon, and fending for themselves- on King Island. They ask the old man to teach the old ways that were rapidly giving way to mainland life (if you call it that) that seemingly was overtaking every aspect of their beleaguered lives. But the old folk hung on the the old ways.....and these unlikely kids were their last hope. It is beautifully illustrated with ample four color woodcuts that depict umiaks, walrus hunts, and one particularly pleasant scene in a men's communal house where figures are stripped to the waist with only their muckalucks and sealskin pants on-- one with a bow-drill in his mouth making a hole in a figure he is carving. Another sands a walrus tusk bird, three or four younger kids lie on their stomachs on long boards hung above the artisans who are seated cross legged on the floor, watching, and one commenting playfully, it seems. To the side there is a figure of an old man lying back with his fingers laced behind his head looking up at the ceiling of the communal house eyes shut and dreaming....or is he? Across this elder's stomach in the large red letters of a library stamp are the words DISCARD Merced County (California) Free Library. My wife rescued it at a library sale some 15 years ago. If not sold by the second time around they must be burnt. So said the librarian. No, sorry we cannot donate them to your homeschool group or even your homeschool, they must be burnt. (And all this time I thought that only Nazis historically burnt books.) I read it to my children Eve and Justin a couple of times a year as they grew up, and now to our two kids we adopted in California (who are yet little and with us yet) well- --maybe not so little, as the older ones got too big to cuddle, (these we are not feeding as much so as to slow the growing process). And now the first two have flown and nested down for themselves, and have given me grandbabies........ I bide my time. I await. I have my magical book at the ready. Always. Always. Chris Richard Kemmer wrote: > John Winters Wrote: > > Long ago when the caribou flowed across the tundra in great antlered waves > > and the steam of their breathing raised clouds above the barrens that > > hunters could see for miles, before the missionaries taught us to sin, > > before the silent diseases of the white man broke our hearts with the > frozen > > bodies of our children, the elders sat in smoky igloos eating fermented > > caribou paunch and argued for hours the merits impressionist soapstone > > carving and the symbolism of bifid bows. > Etc. > > What a great post! John, where did you come across it? If you created it, > it's magnificent. > > Rick > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rick rote; > > What a great post! John, where did you come across it? If you created it, > it's magnificent. > I did write it. Don't tell the Professor though. He doesn't know about my manic-depressive multiple pesonality disorder. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Tom said: <snip> >Who has a better chance of success, one Aleut with 900 hours or 900 >paddlewisers with one hour together? >We wouldn't get past the tow rope. Tom, Tom, Tom, We know we are are anal; why to you have to keep rubbing it in :-) DL *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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