Folks, Another oddity. It is reported by AP in the NY Times (Metro Section), Thursday, Dec. 16, 1999, "An Unexpected View of Lake Erie's Bottom". Reportedly, "the floor of Lake Erie was in Plain view from Buffalo on Tuesday as water shifted from New York and toward Ohio in a rare phenomenon. The cause was a seiche ... , a condition in which strong sustained winds cause large amounts of water to move from one part of a body of water to another." Read the story for details. Richard Clifford *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I for this NY Times article on the web and couldn't find it. Do you have a location for it, or could you send the entire story? Thanks M./ On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Clifford wrote: > Folks, > Another oddity. It is reported by AP in the NY Times (Metro > Section), Thursday, Dec. 16, 1999, "An Unexpected View of Lake Erie's > Bottom". Reportedly, "the floor of Lake Erie was in Plain view from > Buffalo on Tuesday as water shifted from New York and toward Ohio in a > rare phenomenon. The cause was a seiche ... , a condition in which > strong sustained winds cause large amounts of water to move from one > part of a body of water to another." Read the story for details. Richard > Clifford > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Can't help you with the article but it looks like the news hounds get it wrong again when it comes to science reporting. While it may be rare to have a Seiche as large as the one they reported it is not at all a rare occurance to have Seiche activity on the Great Lakes. On any given day you will be able to measure cycles of rising and falling water level over a period of a few hours to half a day or so. In a Limnology class we took a meter stick down to a nice sheltered area of a Marina, tied it to a dock post and watched for the cycles (very high tech!). Every so many hours the water level would rise and fall about six inches. The article is correct in that the cycles are due to either wind pushing more water to one end of the Lake or in some case air pressure variations will raise and lower water levels unevenly across the lakes. Once the water level is disturbed you often have a steady cycle of ups and downs kind of like pushing water to one end of the bath tub and then watching the level rise and fall at the ends as it sloshes back and forth. I believe in class we were told that Lake Erie has had Seiches with water level changes up to five or six feet. More typically you see a foot or two at most. All of this has nothing to do with the moon and the tidal action that we see in the oceans. Maximum lunar tides in the Great Lakes run about two centimeters which is nothing to get excited about. Mark Heath wrote: > I for this NY Times article on the web and couldn't find it. Do you have > a location for it, or could you send the entire story? Thanks > > M./ > > On Thu, 16 > Dec 1999, Clifford wrote: > > > Folks, > > Another oddity. It is reported by AP in the NY Times (Metro > > Section), Thursday, Dec. 16, 1999, "An Unexpected View of Lake Erie's > > Bottom". Reportedly, "the floor of Lake Erie was in Plain view from > > Buffalo on Tuesday as water shifted from New York and toward Ohio in a > > rare phenomenon. The cause was a seiche ... , a condition in which > > strong sustained winds cause large amounts of water to move from one > > part of a body of water to another." Read the story for details. Richard > > Clifford > > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This sounds like a description of what happens in Back Bay at Virginia Beach. We were told the winds had blown all of the water out of the north part of the bay a week or so before we arrived and that only a couple of days before we got there the wind had changed and blown it back in. We didn't test it but I'd guess this is a very shallow bay. It is totally non tidal because it is 70 miles in from the mouth of the bay so all the movement is wind induced. I'm kind of glad we didn't know about this being a possiblity or it would have given me one more thing to worry about for our vacation. We lucked out. The winds were quite strong the first day. 15+ k from the s,se. The next day as totally calm. When we ran into the flies I found myself wishing the wind back. Joan Spinner wanewman_at_uswest.net wrote: > Can't help you with the article but it looks like the news hounds get it wrong > again when it comes to science reporting. While it may be rare to have a Seiche > as large as the one they reported it is not at all a rare occurance to have > Seiche activity on the Great Lakes. On any given day you will be able to > measure cycles of rising and falling water level over a period of a few hours to > half a day or so. In a Limnology class we took a meter stick down to a nice > sheltered area of a Marina, tied it to a dock post and watched for the cycles > (very high tech!). Every so many hours the water level would rise and fall > about six inches. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Joan Spinner wrote: > > This sounds like a description of what happens in Back Bay at Virginia Beach. > We were told the winds had blown all of the water out of the north part of > the bay a week or so before we arrived and that only a couple of days before > we got there the wind had changed and blown it back in. Joan, your description fits a variation of "storm surge," a different phenomenon. A seiche can be set in motion by wind, landslide, tsunami, tidal exchange, or any other sizeable disturbance of the surface of the water. In bathtub terms, it is "sloshing" tuned to the natural period of slosh of the tub. Certain to incur the rath of Mom/Dad when you are small. > wanewman_at_uswest.net wrote: > > > [snip]it is not at all a rare occurance to have > > Seiche activity on the Great Lakes. On any given day you will be able to > > measure cycles of rising and falling water level over a period of a few > > hours to half a day or so. Due, no doubt, to that humongus "baby" sloshing around in the other end of the lake <G>. Willard Bascom's Revised edition of *Waves and Beaches* has a lucid treatise on seiche -- pages 104-111. Out of print, but probably in the earth science section of any well-equipped public library. Seiches triggered by a passing tsunami can be huge, and have been noted in open bays (Monterey Bay, Los Angeles Harbor). In addition, an extremely large undersea earthquake generates a seismic sea wave that can *travel around the world,* one in the North Pacific triggering seiches in harbors in the Atlantic (for example). Thanks to Karen Hancock for leading me to that factoid a couple months ago. (see: http://wwwneic.cr.usgs.gov/neis/eqlists/USA/1964_03_28.html for the rest of the story on the '64 quake, a piece of which is quoted below) > This shock generated a tsunami that devasted many towns along the Gulf of > Alaska, and left serious damage at Alberni and Port Alberni, Canada, along > the West Coast of the United States (15 killed), and in Hawaii. The maximum > wave height recorded was 67 meters at Valdez Inlet. Seiche action in rivers, > lakes, bayous, and protected harbors and waterways along the Gulf Coast of > Louisiana and Texas caused minor damage. It was also recorded on tide gages > in Cuba and Puerto Rico. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
National Public Radio had a segment on it yesterday on All Things Considered. They described the phenomenon and also mentioned the rogue waves that the water sloshing can trigger. The guest speaker mentioned six fishers killed while on a pier on Lake Michigan when hit by just such a wave. There was no mention of wave height. Kind of like our own little tsunamis here in the Midwest! -Patrick PS From my window I can see that the Mississippi here in St. Paul is starting to ice up. :-( *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
You know, the first time I recall reading about a "Seiche" was in grade 2 reading Rachel Carson's, "The Sea Around Us..." I bought a copy sometime since moving out here, in a used book store... Maybe it's a good time to read that thing... Thanks Clifford... Tom... At 08:24 AM 12/16/99 -0500, Clifford wrote: >Folks, > Another oddity. It is reported by AP in the NY Times (Metro >Section), Thursday, Dec. 16, 1999, "An Unexpected View of Lake Erie's >Bottom". Reportedly, "the floor of Lake Erie was in Plain view from >Buffalo on Tuesday as water shifted from New York and toward Ohio in a >snip----> <gadfly_at_tscnet.com> homepage: http://www2.tscnet.com/~gadfly/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
wanewman_at_uswest.net wrote: > > Can't help you with the article but it looks like the news hounds get it wrong > again when it comes to science reporting. While it may be rare to have a Seiche > as large as the one they reported it is not at all a rare occurance to have > Seiche activity on the Great Lakes. On any given day you will be able to > measure cycles of rising and falling water level over a period of a few hours to > half a day or so. In a Limnology class we took a meter stick down to a nice > sheltered area of a Marina, tied it to a dock post and watched for the cycles > (very high tech!). Every so many hours the water level would rise and fall > about six inches. > I learned about this in a land surveying course in university. Occasionally a surveyor will try to cheat and, rather than carry a level around the shore of a lake, take the level of the water at one end and assume it's the same at the other. This can lead to interesting errors. When folks ask me if there are tides on the Great Lakes, I say yes, but they are much amaller than wind induced shifts. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> wanewman_at_uswest.net wrote: --snip-- > > Seiche activity on the Great Lakes. On any given day you will be able to > > measure cycles of rising and falling water level over a period of a few hours to > > half a day or so. --snip-- This effect was first noticed on Lake Ontario following the Henderson goal in the Canada v. USSR series. First the goal. Then the single greatest draw of domestic water in the watershed history (everyone went to the toilet after having sat in suspense for so long). Then the single greatest power draw (a visit to the fridge for a beer on the way back to the T.V.). Then the single greatest non-natural raise in lake water level as the surge from the previously mentioned great flush made its way through the system and out into paddling territory. Ah, those were the days -- what a sense of patriotism that goal gave us, and what a sense of community that flush gave us. Too bad Mason had already filmed "The Rise and Fall of the Great Lakes." Rama rama ding ding, Richard Culpeper *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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